“Expanding the Table” Podcast - Season 1, Episode 1
Episode 1: Racism, Police Reform, and Faith
*This episode was awarded 3rd place in the podcast category by the United Methodist Association of Communicators in 2022.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks
Rev. Kirk Lyons of Brooklyn, N.Y., and Rev. Jeremy Wicks of Traverse City, Mich. are United Methodist pastors who are leading community-wide conversations and demonstrations that call attention to implicit and explicit racial bias experienced by Black and Brown people at the hands of police officers. Both are bringing together church, community, and law-enforcement members to seek solutions.
Lyons and Wicks talk about their work as an outgrowth of their understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and offer ideas for how Christian communities may learn more and get involved in local police reform and anti-racism efforts.
Listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Amazon Music. You can watch the video podcast here.
Rev. Kirk Lyons
Season 1, Episode 1 Transcript:
Opening Credits: [00:00:01] Hi everyone, welcome to Expanding the Table, the podcast on practicing antiracism where we share experiences to inform and inspire you on how to work towards racial justice.
Garlinda Burton: [00:00:18] Welcome, everybody, to Expanding the Table. This is a new podcast series from the General Commission on Religion and Race, and I am your host, Garlinda Burton. Delighted to have with us for this first podcast the Reverend Kirk Lyons of Vanderveer Park United Methodist Church in Brooklyn, New York, and the Reverend Jeremy Wicks, who is from Traverse City, New York. He is a former police officer and police chaplain. Hello, my brothers.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:00:54] Hello, Garlinda.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:00:55] Hello.
Garlinda Burton: [00:00:56] Good to have you.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:00:57] It's great to be here. Thank you for the invitation.
Garlinda Burton: [00:00:59] Glad to be here. Our conversation today is about racism, police reform and faith. And so, we've asked Reverend Lyons and Reverend Wicks to be with us because they have a particular interest and involvement in integrating faith with real life and faith to solve problems related to police reform and what some people believe are racism, issues that affect the way we police and the way that we interact with communities of color. So, I'm going to start with you, Reverend Lyons. Tell me a bit about why you as a person of faith, as a United Methodist clergy person, would become involved in police reform. What does this have to do with faith?
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:01:54] Everything. I think central to our issues with police reform is a concern for justice. And the gospel is all about justice. When you see particularly black and brown and the most vulnerable of our society, being those who are unfairly accused, unfairly prosecuted, abused, particularly by those who have sworn to protect and serve, we have a problem. And so, when you look at the work of Jesus, Jesus was always among the least of these. He was always among the most vulnerable. When you see his ministry as detailed in the Gospels, it is a ministry to the most vulnerable. And so, I don't I think that we are missing out an important piece of our faith in action when we do not advocate for justice.
Garlinda Burton: [00:02:52] Thank you. Reverend Wicks, what about you? You are a former police officer, former chaplain, now a local church pastor in Michigan. How did you get involved in and what does this have to do with your faith walk?
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:03:08] So for me, it was really after kind of seeing and experiencing my context of my growing up in the inner city in Lansing, a very diverse neighborhood, and then talking as I aged and began to have more conversations with my brothers in law. So now I'm in my late teens, early twenties, and these men who all happen to be black men are telling me of their experience, which is growing up in the same neighborhoods and the same community that I grew up in but having a completely different experience that I was utterly ignorant of. And that was when my eyes began to be open to the privilege that I was allowed and enjoyed as a as a white male in this community. And then it kind of getting into police chaplaincy right around the time when Ferguson happened was kind of an interesting experience. And I would agree 100% with Reverend Lyons. I think this is not just a justice issue. You know, we talk about truth and justice and the American way. That's we're talking justice that will roll down like streams like mighty rushing rivers from the throne of God. That this is the basic work of the gospel is setting the oppressed free and walking alongside those who are marginalized. And we certainly see that, as Kirk said, modeled in the life and Ministry of Jesus. And I think that's who we are called to be, aside from our social principles, the vows we take at ordination, and we commit to in licensing, these this goes back to our baptismal vow of who we are at our core as Jesus followers. What does it mean to live the Jesus way of life and love? It is a life lived for justice and end to justice.
Garlinda Burton: [00:05:09] So what is the concern? I think most of our United Methodists are in involved in their local churches. In the United States, our churches, our membership is 90% white. And many of our members would say, what is the concern? We are we are a people who believe in supporting law enforcement. We believe in supporting just government. So, for the people who may not understand what is the issue?
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:05:42] That is part of the issue right there, that there are people in our church that do not understand what the issue is. To me, it says that they are disconnected from a reality that people of color live with every day. And this is something that I experienced on some level with my first appointment, which was a cross-cultural appointment. Just to give you an indication of timing. I think it was my second or third Sunday right after the Trayvon Martin verdict, and it was one of the toughest Sundays for me because I didn't get any sleep, because I cried out the night before and I and I struggled and I, I, I had a bit of a tug, a tug of war with God asking why was I going to preach to a congregation that was so disconnected from my pain and from the pain of people that looked like me when I should be standing before people that look like me, that needed a word of healing, a word of comfort in that moment. And it was indeed difficult. But eye opening the sermon that that Sunday was who is your neighbor? And asking all the tough questions of how you see the other and your connectedness or disconnectedness to the other and the implications in the larger society. And the response from so many of them afterwards answered my questions that I had with God. Why? Why am I? Because if we don't enter into conversations with people that are disconnected from our reality, they will always ask the question, what is the issue? What is the concern? Because they really won't know what it is.
Garlinda Burton: [00:08:56] So the concern is that in this country, people of color, particularly black and brown people, have a different experience of the police than the majority population. And often that experience is perceived to be racially based. I know that we've had the high-profile cases with the George Floyds of the world. So, the George Floyd case was a watershed in our society and in our church. We saw an increased interest among United Methodist Christians of all colors, at least having a conversation about race and racism and racial justice. And for many United Methodists, it was uncomfortable because maybe of what you both have described has been, you know, a lack of knowledge, a lack of being involved in each other's realities. And what we've learned is that this is while the high-profile cases are black and brown, we also see that in Oklahoma, for example, oftentimes Native Americans are disproportionately targeted by police or seemingly so, and as well as African Americans and Latino Americans. I think the other thing is in Hawaii, for example, we hear a lot about native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders being disproportionately targeted. And so, both of you have looked at your community. And Reverend Lyons, I'd like for you to talk about what you saw or what was the reality as you saw it in your community and how you started to address the racial disparity in terms of police, police treatment, and also the risk that that people of color face when they encounter the police many times.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:11:05] The seeing began very early in my life as an early teenager. You begin to have personal experience or witness things from your friends. I remember being placed in the back of a police car and taken to taken to the local police station because I quote, "fit the description of a perp that they were looking for" only to get to the police station. And when I actually saw the drawing of the individual, I said, "You've got to be kidding me. Do you think I look anything like the person in this drawing?" And the officers looked at the drawing, looked at me, looked at the drawing, looked at me, and they had to agree with me. And instead of taking me back to where they picked me up from, they just let me go. And I had to walk home from the precinct. That was my first personal experience. And I've had so many others since then befriending police officers, having friends that were police officers, engaging in the difficult conversations with them, asking the questions about their training, asking questions about the police culture to try to get an understanding about how they are trained and then the culture that they graduate to, which are two different things. A lot of a lot of times and even as recent as today, I had a conversation with a dear friend, another pastor who's a retired Nassau County detective, who does go back and does certain types of training in the academy.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:12:42] And I said, my issues are not always so much of the training. Sure, there's some things that could be tweaked in the academy. But my major concern is the police culture that they graduate to and how often I've heard friends that graduate and they get on the job, and they're told, forget what you learned in the academy, and they are born into a culture that is drenched in in prejudice and racism. And even officers black and brown and Latino officers are brought into that same culture where they have a skewed perspective of the people in the neighborhoods where they policed. And many of them I can't tell you how many police officers I've talked to that have been mistreated while they're off duty by fellow officers. They are not exempt from it just because they wear blue at work. It's because they're black when they're not wearing the blue that they're still subject to the same things that are born in that police culture. I currently am a part of the 67th Precinct Clergy Alliance here in Brooklyn, where we meet regularly with the police.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:14:10] We are on call for shootings here, here in Brooklyn to be on site for those things. One of the things that we have been fighting for and have begun to make some headway has been for responders other than police officers to come. When we have a call for an EDP, emotionally disturbed individual where we've had casualties, when police have come on the scene, and we've had emotionally disturbed people and you can hear a parent screaming for them not to kill their son. And it happens anyway where they're shot and sometimes fatally. I've also spent with each appointment that I've had, my church is also every year have what we call law enforcement Sunday, where we invite local precincts as well as the brass in on a Sunday morning. And I make it clear to them that our ministry to you is both priestly and prophetic. I'm going to minister to you, going to minister to your families, provide all types of ministry to you. But prophetically, I'm also going to hold you accountable because I have a vested interest in how you do, what you do and how it affects the community where our ministry has been planted.
Garlinda Burton: [00:15:39] Thank you. Reverend Wicks, you have you also have done some interacting with the police. And I want to ask you from your vantage point, Reverend Lyons has described his area in Brooklyn. From your vantage point, what are some of the concerns that you have raised that you working with people of color have seen? What are some of the things that you think are pressing right now with regard to race and police reform, the need for reform.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:16:11] I think, Reverend Lyons, that that image of not image the reality of academy to culture. I have not heard it named that way, but I would echo that. That is a tremendous area where reform needs to happen because it is, you know, these cops who are on a beat or they're driving or they're on patrol, whatever they're doing, suddenly things shift as soon as they're out of the academy and they're in that patrol vehicle and they've got that badge on. My experience I mean, I don't I'm I hate to say this, but it's probably not a surprise. I have never had to be I've never feared being pulled over by a police officer. And it guts me to know that siblings do. I think there's a simple reality that a lot of cops are unaware of there become. And I have served as a police officer and a police chaplain. So, I've I remember a story, and this is kind of goes to that this reality of unawareness of the truth and the reality of our siblings of color. I remember it was 2:00 in the morning and we pulled over this large extended pickup truck. And there was this my fellow officer, and I approached the vehicle on the passenger side. And when I got there before the other officer approached on the driver's side, and it was this 22, 23-year-old black man who was absolutely terrified as he sat and watched two white cops in the middle of nowhere pull up to his walk up to his doors.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:18:01] He was sweating. You could tell this young man was absolutely terrified. And it was in that moment I realized, like not realized for the first time, but it was kind of a reminder of this was an experience I never I have never thought about in my life. And it ended up being there wasn't he was speeding. It was 2:00 in the morning. Nothing going on. But this we actually I talked to him, invited him not didn't direct him out of the vehicle, invited him out of the vehicle to just come sit with me on the front of the patrol car and catch his breath. And we did. And he was telling me about these experiences that he's had getting pulled over by white police and white specifically white police officers, and just the terror and the fear that was running through his mind every time that those encounters happen. I will never forget that moment. I wish I could say, and I have said to my fellow officers, I've told that story in training settings to try to build some awareness.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:19:13] I've shared that story with command and the department that I worked with because I think it really illustrates the reality of my black and brown siblings when interfacing and interacting with police officers. And this was. Six years ago. A lot has happened in six years. And I. I can't even imagine. I can't imagine. But I hear stories. So, I interact with a lot of our leaders around racial justice here in northern Michigan and Traverse City specifically. And I hear these stories. We have a large indigenous native population in northern Michigan. And they're telling the same story. There's an assumption by every county deputy when they pull over and they see somebody native that that that that person is drunk or they're on meth. These are the words. These are the stories that are being shared with me. So, I don't know if it would make a difference, to be honest. I would love to sit every cop down in a room with someone with a native person, with a Latino person, a black like. Let's listen to stories. I don't know if that would make a difference, but I would love to see that happen.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:20:40] As I'm listening to you share the story of encountering a black man while on the job, I'm thinking about an experience I had while living in Harlem. A dear friend of mine, a Jewish friend and I, we had a date to go play golf. So, he picks me up so we can ride together to the golf course. He comes in front of the house, I come down, put my clubs in the trunk. We turn down my block. As soon as we get on Broadway, we're stopped by an unmarked car. Out of the unmarked car comes two officers and they're both coming on both sides. He's driving. I'm on the passenger side. The officer on my side. Begins to scream at me. And he's already pulled out his driver's license. Of which they haven't asked for it. Asking me, where am I coming from? And I'm saying home. Where do you live? I know. They just watched me come out the house. So, what is your address? I tell them the house number. What is the zip code here? They're running me through the mail just to make sure that I am who I say I am.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:22:02] And I actually do live here. And. And he says, Officers, why are you questioning him? I was driving and they bark at him to shut up and they use language a lot. It wasn't as nice as what I just said. And he is petrified at this point because he's never experienced this in his life. He's never had an encounter like this with the police. And he doesn't understand why they're so angry, why they're yelling at me. We didn't do anything. He just picked me up. So, we're playing golf and he is traumatized. He cannot even enjoy the round of golf, of which I'm enjoying. And he says, I don't understand how you can just play golf now. And I said, this is my life. I can't tell you how many times that's happened to me. I'm actually used to it. And it was the first time he actually experienced what he's heard about. And it traumatized him, even though he was not actually the target. The target was the guy sitting on the passenger side and yet being that close to it, completely traumatized him.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:23:13] Listening to that I get. The feeling, I would say I'm feeling angry that we have so that it has become normal for you, my brother, to have to have that type of an experience to the point where it doesn't mess up your golf game. Maybe we I. People that look like we need to be a little more traumatized. But that might not. I'm going to use that word. We need to. We need to see. We need to understand. We need to know. And. For me, it was when it became personal. And I remember. And the young man on that roadside. His name was Michael. And I will never forget him. I'll never forget the fear in his eyes and the realization in that moment that that he thought he was going to die.
Garlinda Burton: [00:24:11] Let me push you a little bit, because I probably told the story before, but I always say, let me play devil's advocate for a minute. And I had a pastor who preached a great sermon about the devil doesn't need any more advocates. It was a great sermon, but I'm going to play devil's advocate anyway. I'm a law-abiding citizen. And I for example, in my city, Nashville, Tennessee, the crime rate is going up. You know, we're becoming more of a city. The crime rate is going up. And you talked about, you know, what people say, forget everything you've learned at the academy. Now you're in the real world. Isn't that what we do in a lot of professions, though? I mean, I know teachers, there's there are things they learn in the in the in their classroom. And when they step into real school, the reality looks a little bit different. You know, if you are when you go through basic training in the military, you can simulate battle the battlefield. But when you get out there, they're there. It's a little bit different, even as people who are in ministry, what seminary teaches us with which licensing school, which lay leader training teaches us it looks different in the battlefield. So, are we not taking into consideration that it is a tough job and maybe police officers have to make conclusions? I can hear I can hear my people of faith saying, you know, we're law-abiding citizens and we need police officers who are making good decisions to keep our society safe, to protect and serve. So, what is it? What would you say to that? Is it not that we I mean, we can't have an encounter group every time there's a police encounter.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:26:05] Well, Garlinda, I'll start and then I'll defer to my brother who has actually served on the police force. I will say that, yes, you are correct. In addition to being a clergy, I have been an educator for a number of years. So, I will concur that, yes, a lot of what we learn in training does have to be tweaked when we're actually on the job. I will say this, though. Here's the issue for me with that. As an educator, there may be methods of pedagogy that you have learned, that you realize it doesn't work as well as expected. And so, you make adjustments because of the goal. The goal is to make sure that information is transferred and received by your students that you're actually able to teach them. We are really clear about what the goal is as an instructor, and we know what the stakes are. So, the question that has to be asked as it becomes to police officers, well, what is the goal? Why are things different? Why are you being told to forget everything that you've learned in the academy? What does that mean for a police officer? Does it mean you were told a chokehold is illegal, but out here we're going to do the chokehold? Does it mean that you're taught that the baton can only be raised a certain a certain height when you're using it on an individual? But on the street, we raise it as high as we want to cause as much harm as we want. You know, that's the question. What are the reasons why you're being told things are different? Forget what you've learned in the academy and what's at stake. What is the goal at the end of the day, is the goal only for you, as so many of my friends in Blue have said, is the goal only for you to make it home at the end of your shift alive? Is that the only goal does protect and serve just. Not fit into the equation anymore.
Garlinda Burton: [00:28:07] And who are you using the chokehold on? Are you using it on some people and not using on other people.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:28:13] Or.
Garlinda Burton: [00:28:13] Others?
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:28:14] Pastor Wicks I would say so as somebody who's also been in education, you know, we used to hear best practices, right? We, we use that language. When I think of seminary, I think of, of course, the study. I think of police academy. I think we're teaching and college prepping for education. I think all of those are best practices. Now, the reality is, is that and Garlinda, I think this is part of the question you're asking, like best practice is in reality is different. They are different. Sometimes they can be. So, what do we do when we're out on the street and we're on patrol and something happens, and we have to make a judgment call? Well, if we as police officers have trained and trained and trained, just like as teachers, if my first inclination is to escalate a situation, the results are going to be negative for everybody. So, if I start at best practices and have to tweak from there and I fall back on those best practices, I think the outcome could be positive. And I'm thinking so I spent in my middle school career eight years as essentially the dean of students where I dealt with primary student discipline with six, seventh and eighth graders.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:29:44] And I immediately learned that if I was if I came into a situation amped up, that child was going to get amped up. And then I have to decide, do I continue to escalate the situation because I'm not the one that's going to get in trouble. I'm not the one that's going to get suspended from school. And or do I do I choose to fall back on those things that I learned in school to help me, to de-escalate myself? And when I'm able to de-escalate myself, I'm able to de-escalate the situation. I think that applies to law enforcement. If I walk, if I had walked up, I'll go back to Michael again. If I had walked up in and regardless of before I saw him up there, you know, saw who he was and with my hand on my gun, my primary safety on my holster, off and ready for something to go down, chances are it wouldn't have if I'm all amped up. If I if I have. I talked with my kids about this like you are. You are kind of building the situation in to something more than it is. So, if I'm again if I'm going back to best practices, I'm making sure I'm not I'm not escalating a situation.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:31:00] I think there could be more positive outcomes. And I part of my frustration with law enforcement is there's something that happens with a lot of people that when you put on that badge, and you put on that gun. Or Ring of death as some of my clergy colleagues in the Michigan conference call that duty belt. There's a personality shift. And too many of our law enforcement officers and I say that knowing that having experienced that a little bit and having to check my own self and check my own spirit. I remember the first time I clipped my badge on my left breast and snapped that duty belt on my way. Suddenly I felt like I had power that I didn't have before. Walking out that door, driving in, remembering what it was about, what's the goal, as Kirk said, to protect and serve that there's no exertion of power there. I'm a servant of the public and of the people that are in my community. I'm not there to exert any sort of authority over them. The goal is to protect and serve.
Garlinda Burton: [00:32:19] I think that I've heard both of you talk about the impact of being in the community as people of faith who are both walking with police officers and having that prophetic presence as well. And so, Reverend Lyons, I'm going to I'm going to pick on you. I happen to know that you have led a ministry for a while that has involved the men of your church and other men of faith in a community presence. And I'd like to you to say more about that, how that got started, how it started working, and what was the outcome in in engaging the police in in sort of a growing experience about the community and understanding and being connected to the communities that they police.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:33:12] Certainly. Thank you, Garlinda. Since 2008 in 2008, I founded a ministry called Brothers Keepers Fellowship. Around 2011 was when we began having our boots on the ground ministry. And that ministry entailed being on the street at midnight, taking men into the most violent areas of our communities and the places where the crime. Church police? Yes. Church men. Unarmed, without police presence. And that was the biggest tug of war was with police chiefs, because they absolutely did not want us on the street. They had concerns. They wanted us to have plainclothes police officers with us. I said, absolutely not. The guys on the street? No, you plainclothes officers. It would violate the integrity of this ministry. And so, in Hempstead, Retired Chief McCowan, we came to an agreement that the police officers would be a block away in an unmarked car and allow us to do what we did. And the police officers that were observing us couldn't believe, first of all, that the gangbangers and drug dealers were given us face time. And when they would see us routinely standing on a streetlamp with a huge circle, holding hands and praying for them, they became intrigued. But the biggest thing with that ministry is what happened with the crime rate. And of course, Chief McCowan had the data. There were no more killings because it was it was rampant with homicides in one particular area. I think it was the three and a half years that we patrol that area that had the most homicides. There was no homicide.
Garlinda Burton: [00:35:19] This was a rough part of Brooklyn.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:35:21] Yes. Yes. Well, this this was this was an.
Garlinda Burton: [00:35:25] On Long Island, I'm sorry.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:35:25] Called the Linden Triangle. And as a matter of fact, one of the journalists that. He got wind of it and came out a few times and wrote a couple of articles. He actually wrote a book on the work that we were doing, even though he fabricated some things in the book. But that ministry of being on the street where these things are taking place and this ministry, we call it candid, confrontational and constructive, which is really what it is. But we're not judging them, but we are talking to them about their life and about making better choices. And it begins by asking them, what can we pray for, for you and or your family? What are the things you need us?
Garlinda Burton: [00:36:17] And they would actually tell you things.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:36:20] Absolutely. That approach opened the door on some of the hardest people I have ever been face to face within my entire life. And I'm not just talking about gang bangers, I'm talking about gang leaders, because what the leaders say go. And if the leaders said, we're not praying with those guys, we're not talking to them, it wouldn't happen. I recall one the first time we met with the Bloods in that area, they saw us coming around the corner and this night there was probably about 17, anywhere between 17 and 20 of us. And so, they see this group of men getting ready to walk into the mouth of their turf. And by the time we got there, they had gathered weapons. And we're about 40 strong in the middle of the street while we were walking. And the guys are like, what do you want to do? I said, Keep walking. And they called out because they thought they recognized one of the guys with us in the front line with me. And they were correct. It was a local barber. And of course, many of them went to his shop to get their haircuts and they're like, who's that you with? And he said, I want to introduce you to somebody. So, he bought me. To meet the leader of the gang. And we had a parley. I told him who I was. I told him who the brothers with me were, what we were doing, why we were doing, what we were doing. I told them how often we went up state. To visit his comrades that were locked up. How often we prayed for mothers who had lost sons to gang violence. And I said, basically, I'm tired of you guys getting shot. I'm tired and this is what we're going to do about it.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:38:15] We want to pray for you and for any and everything that you need prayer for. And he was he was shocked to hear that these are guys from the church that just want to pray for them, that are concerned, showing some concern. And so, he called his guys up. And when he called them up, they were ready to do one thing and were shocked. And I mean, I remember the looks on their faces when he said, we're going to pray. They were like, pray. And he kind of barked at them and he barked at them to telling them to take their hats off as well. But because he was who he was to them, they took their hats off. We join hands. And when we finished praying, I said, Now, look, we're going to be here every week, every Friday night, around the same time. So, when you see me walking with a group of men, just know we're here to pray for you. And the area before them was the area where we always ran into the Crips, who in that particular area ran the drug trade. But every Friday night, we encountered gang bangers and others on the streets, and we prayed for them. And it got so common to them that I remember one night when one looked at their watch and say, You guys are late, we got worried about you. You normally here before now. And we all just laughed, all of us. But it was a transformative ministry, but it was our way of reaching them and actually also, in a way, protecting them from the violence they perpetrated on each other and their encounters with local law enforcement as well.
Garlinda Burton: [00:40:07] That's kind of amazing. You know, I'm an old cynic. And just to think that you could walk in that area and get people to really listen to you, but you didn't ask them for a lot, and you offered them something. And I guess that is that's what we're supposed to do as a church, right? We are supposed to offer people Christ and we're supposed to believe that we have the power of Christ at our back to help us and before us to help us, too.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:40:42] So and ministry like that is not for the faint hearted. So, there are many men that were part of our Brothers Keepers Fellowship who were just not cut out for being on the street on a Friday night after midnight, you know, confronting, you know, gang bangers. It wasn't for everyone that that was very clear to us. And we had some touch and go moments at different times that were really touch and go. There were I can distinctly recall four times when we encountered individuals that showed us their firearms and they were prior to running into us, they were going to shoot somebody. That's why they were out there. They were looking for someone to shoot and amazing ministry, but certainly not for the faint hearted.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:41:32] Kirk, would you say? Well, I just the word you didn't say the word, but I've just kept hearing relationship, relationship, relationship with and there was no expectation it wasn't a this was not an evangelistic campaign. We're going to get you into our building and into our pews. This was about building relationships in your community that were then transformative.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:41:55] It was a seed planting ministry. That's how we described it to a lot of the churches, because the goal was always to get local pastors to come out. And we did get a couple to join us because at the end of the day, for those, we always got to question What church do you guys go to? They just couldn't believe that these were men that went to church. And so, we had individuals that would go to church. We had more women that wanted to be on the street with us than men. And, you know, because it's a men's ministry, we wouldn't allow women to be out with us. But it was so bad that some women would just say, I'm showing up anyway and they would come to where we were meeting. And they just got out there. And I was like, Listen, this is a ministry for men, and it's primarily geared to other men. I had to find something for the sisters to do. And so eventually what we had was every Friday night we would have a conference call with a different women's ministry whose job it was to pray for us from the time we started until the time we had completed the walk. And it didn't mean it didn't matter whether we got finished 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, those women were on that prayer call praying for us. It was a way for us to partner with sisters in ministry. And it was it was just beautiful. Beautiful. The thing to behold, and then to call back and let them know that we were all done, everything went well. And you get on the line, and you hear them going in and prayer. They were interceding on our behalf the entire time we were out on the street.
Garlinda Burton: [00:43:36] That's amazing. I will say, though, speaking for us tough sisters, there's some tough sisters who would have probably been just as comfortable out on the street and more comfortable than some of the brothers. I'm just saying.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:43:50] I believe you and I know some of them actually.
Garlinda Burton: [00:43:53] But I think you raised a good question or an issue that is part of the racial disparity and the distance between oftentimes the police community and communities of color and low-income communities. And, you know, I'm old enough to remember when in cities now it's different in smaller cities and towns where you had to live in the city limits and basically live in your neighborhood to be an employee of the city, a police officer, a fire department. My brother-in-law is a retired firefighter in Chicago, and he had to live in his community. I have a cousin who's a police officer in Chicago and he lives in his community. And he and his partner officers do a lot of work with youth in the community where they live because they live in that community. And I think that one of the one of the realities of racism is that people live that that white people, particularly, and people who have a little bit more income, can live away from the most challenged communities in the in the area. And so, they don't live in those communities. They don't establish the personal relationships, the getting to know. They don't know their community. So, they come in many times like an occupying force instead of servant, as we understand, a serving community. And so that's one of the things that Jeremy, I think you were Pastor Wicks, I think you were working on this that, you know, getting folks out of the comfort of their own communities and stepping out of their comfort zones. And I know, Reverend Lyons, you've done this as well, but Pastor Wicks, I remember you talking about getting people to see to see what's going on in communities that don't look like theirs. And I know that you serve churches that were a little bit more affluent maybe than the, you know, the average low-income community in Lansing or in Traverse City. Am I am I correct about that? Does that does that resonate at all about the community relations?
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:46:17] So I think that's part of well, so we'll put this on churches. So, we're getting I'm getting ready to make a move. I've been reappointed and we're in the process of loading boxes. Today we started and the house that I'm going to be living in, the parsonage is outside of the city limits, seven miles away from the neighborhood that the church is in, that that's a pretty common thing in Michigan. I don't know what that's like. Even in some of our larger cities, you have parsonages that are in the suburbs because why would the pastor want to live in the neighborhood where they're called to serve? And to me, that's a rhetorical like that is ridiculous idea. I want to be where my people are. I want to be in the heart of where God has called me to be. I think policing when it's done well is always community policing. It's always relationally based. I grew up in a neighborhood and there was an experiment at the time in my early 1012, so elementary middle school years where in the Lansing Police Department they required if you wanted to serve in their community policing program, you had to live in the neighborhood, not neighborhood, not adjacent to the neighborhood. You had to live in the neighborhood that you were going to be policing. And my experience and now I would say the experience of our neighborhood, again, very diverse was these officers cared because they were invested. They were they were going to they were going to one another's houses, not the officers, but to their neighbors’ homes for barbecues. On Sunday afternoon, they knew their children. So, they're more likely to pick up a kid and say, hey, little, little Tommy, you know, let's get you home than to chase a little Tommy down with a handgun because Tommy was doing something stupid or the perception. So, this idea of being in relationship with your community, I think is one of the best things that we could move toward. And policing in America has there is evidence that it works. It has to be relational. And it really kind of puts the onus on the officer that's doing this work and the departments to focus on what is the goal? What is that idea of goal? I love that. Like, that's the question. What is the goal if it's to protect and serve? I'm going to tell you, I'm going to do that much differently in a neighborhood that I'm invested in, with people that I care about, then in a neighborhood or a community that I just show up to get a paycheck from. We saw that in the police department that I served. We had a large Reserve Corps and most of those reserve officers came from outside of the community and their attitude was different. They were the ones that wanted to write tickets for any infractions. They were the ones that, you know, if they had to chase somebody down to, you know, put them in handcuffs, they were telling these stories like they were like there was this adrenaline rush. They were so excited. And then you could tell the officers that lived in the community when they're telling stories, they're different because they know the people they're interacting with, and they care. They're invested in those relationships. And it makes a tremendous difference in how police, police.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:49:59] I think one of the most game changing statements that I've heard come from a police officer's mouth is. I know that kid
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:50:07] Yes.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:50:09] It speaks to their attitude in the moment, and it says something to their partners. That can be the catalyst for that kid. Not being killed in that moment.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [00:50:24] Yes.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:50:25] Familiarity. I know that kid can make all the difference in the world in that moment, in that encounter for that that young kid and the police, the fact that there is an officer that actually knows, and it adjusts their attitude and their approach to whatever that situation is.
Garlinda Burton: [00:50:47] And I also think that once you know that kid or a kid who looks like that or a kid from that community, it may lead you to think lead an officer to think a little longer before othering, you know, other kids who look like that. You know, we can't expect part of the part of my struggle sometimes when we're talking about anti racism, I hear a lot from church people. Well, you know, people just have to get to know each other. And if we can just know each other, we won't see each other as different. And, you know, we get to know each other well. I can't know everybody. You know, I've got to trust that this person is a creature of God, that this person is a child of God. And as a police officer, if you're doing something wrong, I got to do my job, you know? But the difference between me doing my job with a kid who looks like me and particularly, you know, if you're in the white power structure and you have a whole community that is teaching you that black kids are bad, that black kids are dangerous, that Hispanic kids are dangerous, that native kids are dangerous, and they're you know, they're not to be trusted if you've got the whole society telling you that narrative about black men, about brown men, about Native American youth, about Native Hawaiian women.
Garlinda Burton: [00:52:10] If you've got the whole society telling you that, then it's hard to break away from that and not engage in racist thinking on the job as a schoolteacher, as a police officer, you know, as a coach, as a hiring manager at a at a at a business. But the challenge is not just to have them know one or two kids, which is great, but to start to see each see where racism has impeded our ability to see each other as human and as people worth trying to save. And now it's not every police officer, as I said, it's not the job to have a group encounter every time there's an encounter. But to humanize is something that I think with anti-racism we're looking at. You know, it's nice if I get to know Pastor Wicks and he knows me as a person and respects me, it's nicer and more valuable if, you know, he begins to see me as a human being, whether he knows me or not. And I think, Pastor Lyons, that's one of the things when you were you've also worked with the police department as an extension of this men's ministry. And I wanted you to say a little bit more about what happened when you began to use what you've learned to talk with and to work with police captains and police officers and brass.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:53:44] You know, this is the reality with that, they are a lot more receptive to our priestly ministry than they are the prophetic ministry.
Garlinda Burton: [00:53:57] But we all are.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:53:57] And I wish I wish I could say it was different. Yeah, but when you look at the stakes, I had I had a phone conversation. I had called a former member who is a retired police chief where I lived and served. And I was just a random call, someone that I would go hunting with every winter, random call just to check and see how he was doing, how the family is doing, so on and so forth, only to hear from him that he had unfriended me on social media. And I said, Oh, why? I hadn't noticed, of course. And it was because of some videos that I put up of encounters with police officers, you know, police abusing people. And I said, well, you know me well enough to know that that's part of the work that I do. I support and minister to police officers, but I also hold them accountable. I said, and anyone who's paying attention knows what's going on today in that even if we argue that it's not happening anymore, it's just that we're becoming more aware of it. It's on film more it's getting more news coverage that this is a problem. And so, I said you've heard me say in in church that I get video sent to me every day. Every day I get videos sent to me with these types of things. I just don't post them every day, but I receive them every day from around the country. And I said, so for you to see that on my social media and be offended by it is disappointing to me.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:55:39] But I but I, I have to accept it. And so, the conversation continued. And I realized I was disappointed because I'm like, okay, this is someone I've spent considerable amount of time with, someone that I've ministered to deeply, someone that I've come to like, someone to whom I've lent books and they've read them. And then we would spend time talking about the books and it seems. All of a sudden, we've gotten to a place where we can't find any middle ground. We can't. And I said, I want to ask you a question. How many families do you know you've lived in in St James all your life, which was where I was pastoring and living. I had only lived there while I was pastoring. I said, how many people do you know from that area that can say everyone that lives in their household has been stopped multiple times by the police for no reason how many? And he says, well, I can't really say. I said, okay, I can say that everyone that lived in my household has been stopped, including me several times for no reason. And the encounters that I've had particularly late at night when I'm driving home, as soon as I give them the courtesy card with your name and your phone number. Oh, you know, Marty, no problem. But what did I do? Don't worry about it. No problem. Going. Going your way. And I said, and you know what happened with my daughter-in-law? My daughter-in-law was walking from the house to the train station early one morning, going to work.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:57:19] And the cop pulled over with the siren. The lights traumatized her, barking at her. Where are you coming from? What are you doing here? And she says, I'm coming from home. You don't live around here. I mean, literally, she was traumatized, and she hadn't done anything, just left the house and was going to the train station to go to work. And so, I filed a complaint. I called him and I called others and I said, listen, I'm filing a complaint. It's one thing for you to do these things to me, for you to do this to my son. We're men, you know. I said, but when you start doing this to the women in my family, you may have thought I was more like Martin, but I can quickly morph more into Malcolm when you when you when you start traumatizing the women in our family. And I just think that's a natural occurrence for most men. We go to another space when you start mistreating the women in our family, the women that we love. And I was angry, still didn't get any satisfaction. There was no valid reason for that cop doing what they did to my daughter in law. So, and that that relationship ended at that conversation, unfortunately. And I was so hopeful because at least during the time when that person was in the position of chief, I knew that I, I had the, the good fortune to minister to someone. Who was the catalyst of a particular police culture.
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [00:59:08] And. The Prophetic Ministry. Was the thing that just toppled the relationship. And I have no apology for that because I believe that we are called to have priestly and prophetic ministry to those that we minister to. We are always called to speak truth to power and to truth to the people, as well as providing prayer ministry and pastoral care to them as well. So, I have no apology for doing my job. I think it's unfortunate that it has resulted in. Killing off a relationship. I do.
Garlinda Burton: [00:59:51] At the same time, people are literally dying when we do nothing. Pastor Wicks, I was going to want to talk to you about that. I know that interestingly enough, in the last year, couple of years, you've gotten involved in the Black Lives Matter movement. And that is that is a touch point among many United Methodists as well as the rest of society. There's a lot of misinformation about Black Lives Matter. There is. And so, to have you as a white pastor to be supportive, I'd like for you to say some of the work that you've done. But why did you choose to support Black Lives Matter? What is it that you've learned about it that maybe other people don't know? Because it's often painted as an all kinds of things that aren't that I know aren't true. It is not a terrorist organization. It is not an anti-white organization. I probably know as many white people who are at least supporting and attending rallies and marches as I do other people. But what is it that drew you to it? Because I know you were not initially drawn to Black Lives Matter.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [01:01:14] I wasn't. Thanks, Garlinda, for that question. For me, it really was started with an invitation from in our in our community. I was contacted because I'm a I'm a United Methodist pastor, church planter. Our church is known in the community as working for justice and advocating for people on the margins. The church disconnected. Those are the folks that got us called us to. So, through those relationships that have been built with community leaders, one of our county commissioners actually reached out and asked if, in my role as pastor would I. We were they were planning a Black Lives Matter rally in Traverse City. And there was a counter-protest with some proud boys and a couple of these other groups that are embraced by a large segment of the population here in the in northern Michigan. And they had asked if I would organize the clergy in our community to stand as a line between the Black Lives Matter protesters and these proud boys. And their white supremacists AR-15 toting compadres. And I begin to have conversation around that and got involved with some organizing, supporting organizers. I don't consider myself an organizer in that respect. I see my role is one of supporting and using the resources that I have to kind of leverage, leverage that those things wherever I can. And before you know it, I'm downtown. We've got a line of we have clergy who are actually marching around, walking around about 12 to 15 feet between us.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [01:03:14] The entire Black Lives Matter protest while people are speaking and they're praying and they're singing and they're peacefully gathering to fight for and demand justice and reform in policing. It was one of the most profound moments of my pastoral ministry to have been asked. I felt that was a great privilege. And that and prior to that, I hadn't in recent years, I think, Linda, I had said at one point I did kind of look at Black Lives Matter and think, what is this group really? You know? And then I'm someone that does my own research. I don't care what a talking head on a screen says. And I started digging in, I started talking and I started learning about this movement that was about justice and police reform as somebody who had. And that's it. Like that's the goal if we're going to use and kind of stick with that idea of what's the goal, justice and police reform. I didn't find a Marxist organization. I didn't find anybody wanting to come. And, you know, it wasn't like you said, it was not an anti-white movement. It's so I felt honored and privileged to be able to be to be asked to be a part of that and then to participate in that. It kind of reminded me back I was a kid, the very first social, what I would call the social justice action. I was maybe seven years old, and we went into the inner city of Detroit.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [01:04:48] And I was we went with as a black congregation into the neighborhood, and I got to be the drum bearer. And we went we went to the known drug houses, and there were hundreds of people that walked with this congregation. And here I was. And it's funny, looking back, I was the only white person in this group, and it was just an amazing experience. And I got it. So, we're walking and we're chanting and we're kind of proclaiming it was Pack up your crack and don't come back a little more. Not quite. Kirk, where you all were with and are with your ministry. It was a little different take, but I remember being loved and embraced and welcomed and, and I felt that same way and continue to feel that way with Black Lives Matter. I will tell you; I've been told by multiple chiefs of police that I have I will never serve as a police chaplain in a department again because of my affiliation and my ongoing support. One of them suggested I go through and just delete my Facebook page and start from scratch, which I just absolutely refused to do. But yeah, I it has been an honor and a privilege to, to serve alongside those folks that really has been formative in this last couple of years of my ministry, your congregation.
Garlinda Burton: [01:06:16] They were involved as well. So, it's. Yeah. Did you tell me they worship maybe 50 on Sunday. 57.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [01:06:23] Yeah. It's a small congregation, younger families. We are predominantly younger folks at I'm pushing 43. I was one of the young one of the old guys in our congregation. Our we had a great turnout. We had families with their kids down there. We had some of our older folks down there handing out water. We had people acting as we had emergency medical teams that were on radios and comms in case something did happen. And it was a great moment of seeing our church kind of blossom and come alive in this fight for justice and to see our kids there, not because their parents told them they had to come. Our teenagers, these white privilege, middle, upper middle-class kids who were there not knowing what to expect, these teenagers being told that there will be violence. We were warned not to. And these kids are there wanting to be a part of this, not for the sake of. Showing up, but for the sake of making a difference in their community, for their friends who don't look like them.
Garlinda Burton: [01:07:40] So to both of you, I'll start. I'll wrap up the way I started. Why should the church, why should Christian folk be involved? And in what ways would you recommend that church folk of all stripes involve themselves in supporting police reform, support racial justice in that reform, what would you say? Not everyone is in New York City. I bet we have more churches like you have Reverend Wicks. But all of our people of faith want to, I believe, want to make the world better. That's part of who we are as people of the Christian faith and particularly United Methodist. We want to do good. We want to do no harm and do good. How do we do that? How do we begin when it comes to the topic of police reform and anti-racism?
Rev. Kirk Lyons: [01:08:45] I think it begins introspectively with us. We have to graduate from being merely Christians to being disciples of Christ. Being a Christian, you receive all the benefits of, you know, the sacrifice that was made on Calvary. Being a disciple, you roll up your sleeves and you're doing the work. And I think that's part of maturing. As a Christian, as you grow into being a disciple to what we're all called to do to follow him is to do the work that he did and to live into the expectation that he articulated when he said in greater things than these shall you do? Christ set the bar high for all of us. But then he set his expectations for us beyond the bar by letting us know that he expects us to do even more than what he did. And as you examine the work that he did, you know that he worked for justice. You know that he worked for the most vulnerable, for the least of these. And I think part of the earlier, Linda, you spoke about the challenge to humanize people, to see them as human. I'll take it a step further. The challenge to see the image of God in people, because particularly in North America, we've been fed an image of God that is white, that is blonde hair, that is blue eyes. That is the image of God that we've been fed here. And it's hard for people that have been fed that to see the image of God in people that don't fit that description.
Rev. Jeremy Wicks: [01:10:23] Pastor Wicks I would absolutely affirm everything that that Kirk has said. I think that for me and Garland, I think I mentioned this to you. I'm a strong believer that the gospel is political. And I think as Jesus followers, the idea that because we are Christian, that we would disengage from the body politic, that we would not that thoughts and prayers were ever enough is laughable. Nowhere did we see Jesus in the Gospel say, you know, I'll send you some positive vibes. That's not the gospel. The gospel is the good news is God with us, God for us. And if we are going to be gospel bearers in our communities and we're going to bring about the Kingdom of God, we have to be about going, being with and being for. And that whether that's in ministries, through our churches that are getting involved in our local politics or state or national on the national stage, whatever it is not to create a theocracy, but to create a just community, which is what Jesus I think, called the church to and what we see modeled in the Book of Acts.
Garlinda Burton: [01:11:57] Yes. And to know that that God has a plan for us, God has a calling for us. I was raised to believe that I am to leave this planet better than the way I found it. My grandmother used to say that your job is to leave this planet better than when you found it. And as a person of faith and as people of faith, that is what we're called to do. And so, it is our job to ask questions. It is our job to challenge systems to. Celebrate the wins and to celebrate the people who are doing well and to challenge those who still have some learning and some growing to do. I want to thank you so much. This has been the Expanding Table podcast from the General Commission on Religion and Race of the United Methodist Church. And I want to thank all of the listening listeners for joining our conversation on racism, police reform and faith. And I'm especially thankful to our guest for this inaugural podcast, the Reverend Jeremy Wicks and the Reverend Kirk Lyons. Listeners, we love hearing from you. So, if your congregation or if your ministry has some work that you're doing around police reform, if it's a Bible study, if it's a listening circle, if it is praying with, praying for, please let us know. And if you have ideas for future podcasts, please email us at podcast at g, c, 0rr dot org. If you like what you heard, subscribe and share the podcast with others and follow us on social media, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And of course, please rate us and review us on your preferred podcast platform. Every five star review we get sends a message that a podcast like ours and this one particularly is valued. And appreciated. Until next time, remember that God is calling us always to put our faith into action. So go everybody and do good. This is Garlinda Burton, wishing you God's peace.