“Expanding the Table” Podcast - Season 1, Episode 4
GCORR’s Award-Winning Podcast on Practicing Anti-Racism
Episode 4: Robin DiAngelo Discusses "Nice Racism: How Progressive White People Perpetuate Racial Harm"
Robin DiAngelo, PhD
On this episode of “Expanding the Table” we talk with sociologist, educator, and best-selling author, Robin DiAngelo, about her new book, Nice Racism: How Progressive White People Perpetuate Racial Harm. Dr. DiAngelo, author of the book, White Fragility, discusses how well-intended white allies for racial justice can and should step up the work of confronting and correcting their own complicity in systemic racism. DiAngelo is an affiliate associate professor at the University of Washington.
Resources recommended by Dr. DiAngelo:
“103 Things White People Can Do for Racial Justice,” by Corinne Shutack, in Medium.com, Aug. 13, 2017, issue.
Anderson, Carol. White Rage. The Unspoken Truth of Our Racial Divide. Bloomsbury Adult Press, 2017.
Eddo-Lodge. Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race. Generic Press, 2018.
Jones, Robert P., White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity. Simon & Schuster, 2021.
Moore, Eddie Jr., Marguerite W. Penick-Parks., et al., Everyday White People Confront Racial and Social Injustice: 15 Stories. Stylus Publishing, 2015.
Saad F. Layla and Robin DiAngelo. Me and White Supremacy: Combat Racism, Change the World and Become a Good Ancestor (book and guided journal by the same name). Sourcebooks, 2020.
Listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Amazon Music. You can watch the video podcast here.
Season 1, Episode 4 Transcript:
Opening Credits: [00:00:01] You're listening to Expanding the Table where we share experiences to inspire you in your work towards racial justice.
Garlinda Burton: [00:00:12] Hello and welcome back to our podcast series, Expanding the Table. This is Garlinda Burton with the General Commission on Religion and Race. And we are delighted to have in our studio today, Dr. Robin DiAngelo, who is no stranger to GCORR. She is an affiliate associate professor at the University of Washington and author of the 2018 best-selling book, White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People To Talk About Racism. Her new book just released is Nice Racism: How Progressive White People Perpetuate Racial Harm. And we're going to talk about that book today. Robin, it is so good to talk to you again.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:01:01] Oh, I'm so happy to be back with you again, Garlinda. Thank you for having me.
Garlinda Burton: [00:01:05] It's a delight, as always. You have written something that challenges and rankles and provokes, and that's what we like. So let's just get into it. Who are the progressive white people to whom this book is addressed? Progressive has become a very loaded term, particularly in the last 4 to 7 years. So what are we talking about when we are referring to progressive white people?
Robin DiAngelo: [00:01:34] You know, generally the mainstream is included in that. And then the obvious what you might think of as the left side, but really any white person who thinks because they are believers in racial justice, they are not part of the problem. White people who would say I'm not racist would be who I would be speaking to. I'm not speaking to white nationalists or people who I would say are explicit in their desire for a white ethno state. I'm talking to more the middle. To the left.
Garlinda Burton: [00:02:15] Okay. Okay. And so we're talking to the middle and the left. I'm assuming that that would also include people who maybe describe themselves as conservative in many ways but would consider themselves in favor of racial justice and racial harmony. Yes. Okay. Well, that's helpful to know. So what are the main points that you wanted to convey in this book? I notice that it picks up where white fragility left off. And so what were some of the main points that you wanted to address in this book that maybe you didn't get to address? And white fragility.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:02:55] Yeah. You know, White Fragility set out to establish that systemic racism exists and that all white people have been shaped by it, socialized into it. It's the status quo. It's the automatic default of the society. So to push us out of denial about that and to help show how our denial and our defensiveness actually ends up functioning to protect the very system we would claim either doesn't exist or that we don't believe in with nice racism. I'm not setting out to make that case. I'm starting from the premise that my readers accept that reality. They're with me in those ways, but they want a deeper dive. They want a more personal connection in white fragility. I made a provocative claim that I didn't really answer, but I get asked about it a lot, and that is that I think white progressives actually cause the most daily harm across race. And this book sets out to answer that question. How do we do that?
Garlinda Burton: [00:04:00] Yeah, so that that is a provocative statement. So what are some ways that you think this this this more egregious harm happens? What give us a couple of examples, because I think most of us see, you know, the Ku Klux Klan and other white nationalist groups, we see, you know, people pushing back against racial injustice in the criminal justice system as being the more extreme version. So what are what are some of the examples of white progressives bringing harm? Sure.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:04:39] And I'm glad you brought up the KKK and people who would wear white hoods. It's a very classic understanding of what a racist is. But I would also ask, how does that function to see those people, those extreme and explicit people as racist and how that really exempts everybody else. Right. I'm not that. Therefore, I'm. Not racist, but look at our society by every measure, across every institution, racial inequality is reproduced. Look where we are right now in terms of voter suppression, of liberal laws, on books in certain municipalities that say you can't acknowledge the existence of racism, you can't teach about the civil rights movement. The complacency on the part of the more middle of the road white person, right by just kind of offloading racism onto extremists that are easy to identify. That has not ended racism. Right. Something is happening here. And I, I want to change that question from if I've been shaped by the forces of this system, which most people would answer, no, I haven't been. And then what further work is required of us? Nothing. Right. It's not us. We're not the problem. We're good to go. Let's just carry on or lecture other people about their being the problem. And when you change the question from if to how, how have I been shaped my racism, the way that I express my conditioning into this system doesn't look like white nationalism, but it looks like something. Right? It looks like something. And it's on me to continually seek to identify what it looks like and change that.
Garlinda Burton: [00:06:29] So what does it look like? I mean, you're talking about it doesn't look like this, but what does it look like? What are some ways that you know? Because if it's if it is hard to recognize, then we need help. I think white folks need help and recognize it. And maybe even people of color sometimes.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:06:51] Yes. You nothing in society really is acknowledging the reality. We're beginning to do so, of course, much more than we did in the past. We have the president, the current president of the United States saying systemic racism is a real issue. That's kind of amazing for those of us who have been trying to get that conversation going for a very long time. But let's start with white supremacy now. I was raised to think about that again. Notice how often we relegate all of these concepts to extremists in white hoods. But white supremacy is actually a highly descriptive sociological term for the society we live in. A society that holds white people up as the norm for humanity, as the stand in for what is what is a human? What does it mean to be human? What is ideal beauty, who standards and so forth. And when I'm doing a presentation, I'm a visual learner and I like to show a single image that very quickly will convey a concept that can be abstract. And my single image for the concept of white supremacy is the Sistine Chapel and the image of God creating man, that it's just it's so powerful. It's circulates so relentlessly. And so I think, you know, while anti-blackness, I think is the root of this construct and I of course, I have internalized it as someone who grew up here, it doesn't look like the N-word for me. I'm never going to say that. But it looks like basically what I think of as the absence of loss. It looks like comfort in segregation. It looks like the way that we measure the value and status of a space by the absence of black people in any considerable number.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:08:44] In other words, when somebody says a good school, I mean, what do you what do you think of when somebody says a good neighborhood, when somebody on the news says, I can't believe that would ever happen here? What are they talking about? We all know what they're talking about. They're talking about white schools and white neighborhoods. And safe neighborhoods are white neighborhoods. And when a neighborhood is coming down or going up or safe or unsafe, these are in large part assessments made by the absence or presence of black people. I internalize that, and so it translates into not having relationships across race and then being susceptible to absorb messages about people of color. Because I don't have authentic, sustained relationships, it translates into deep, implicit biases that are going to come out in the workplace. They're going to come out on the part of educators. I mean, these are these are measured. I mean, they're clear. For example, Seattle Public Schools have been under federal investigation for many years now for racial disparity in their punishment rates. Black and brown children in Seattle public schools, the like, know the home of white progressiveness. Black and brown children are disciplined four times more harshly for the same infractions than white children. Each of those individual teachers or administrators that inflicts that punishment would say they're not racist. They don't mean to be racist. But that's just one way that that a society that separates us and then tells us there's no value. In knowing you. It's going to it's going to manifest in ways such as that.
Garlinda Burton: [00:10:40] That's very interesting. Some of us are having similar conversations in Christian circles about this, because one of the things that we point to is the fact that the images that we see of Jesus, of Mary, of disciples and even of God are rendered as white, European looking people. And, you know, they're starting to be conversations about what has that taught us in the church, not just white people, but what has it taught people of color about the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, if we are created in God's image, are people who look like those artistic renderings, then closer to God than those of us who are not represented in those artistic, artistic renderings. And so it is an it is a pertinent conversation about the nature of what racism is, because, you know, many Christians in this country would not consider themselves by any stretch racist. But what we have in the church oftentimes is this real dichotomy. And so what you're referring to is certainly apt for the work that we have yet to do in in Christian circles.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:12:14] Yeah. You know, and I grew up Catholic and so there's a lot of iconography in Catholicism. And I was surrounded by those images and it's the power of the message. And so I can imagine some white listeners saying, well, I don't pay any attention to that. And I'm telling you, you're not paying any attention to that as part of the power. But I didn't look up as a child and say, oh, God is white, not at a conscious level, but that reinforcement, because it's not just there. And then we have our Barbie dolls, and we have our cartoons, and we have our teachers and our heroes and our heroines and. All of that reinforces this kind of white as ideal or the standard for human. And, you know, you mentioned that many Christians in the church would not consider themselves to be racist. And yet I'm going to ask a personal question, if I may have you in the Christian church ever experienced racism from nice white Christians who don't consider themselves to be racist? You don't have to give specific examples. But have you ever experienced racism there?
Garlinda Burton: [00:13:28] Yes, I would say and because I've worked for the church for so long, I would say most of the racism that I have observed or experienced that is experienced by people of color have been at the hands of white Christians. So, you know, if I'm being honest.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:13:48] Yes. Yeah. And what I would say to any white Christian listening right now is, wouldn't you want to know if it was you that caused that harm? I don't again want to speak for you, Garlinda, but I'm going to assume that that racism you experienced most often wasn't conscious or intentional. But it's still exhausting. It still impacts you. It still draws energy from you, causes what's termed a static load, which is chronic stress of, you know. And so rather than be defensive about it. Right. Wouldn't we want to know? Wouldn't we appreciate knowing? But when our identities are so strictly rooted in this idea that, you know, I am not racist, that actually functions to prevent us from knowing. Right. Well, I see that's how you see yourself. But I have something to share with you that I hope will expand that. Just asking you to consider it.
Garlinda Burton: [00:14:51] Yeah. Got you on that. I do think though that when we talk about progressive white people, even in the broad sense by which you described it, many white people and people of color consider progressive white people as our allies and sometimes our only allies. And I think during this season, we have seen more white people, particularly young white people, step up and say no to racism, say no to racism that is inherent in policing in communities of color. And while even allies, of course, can learn and improve, I think some people who criticize your work say that maybe you are unfairly condemning white progressives as perpetuators, perpetuators of racial injustice. So do you think you're being fair? And I think that that's a question that many people have. Are you being fair to the people who are at least trying?
Robin DiAngelo: [00:15:57] Well, if we can always improve, wouldn't we want to improve? So let's step back and say this is a huge, complex structural issue. Right. It's arguably the most complex, nuanced, politically, emotionally, culturally charged issue of the last several hundred years. So no one person can be or should be held to be responsible, to speak and address every single aspect of it and get that right by every single person. That's not possible. This is my piece of it. My area of expertise is the particular ways that racism continues to manifest, even from those of us who are well-meaning. And it kind of comes back to, wouldn't you want to know, can we always improve? I do think framing it as is it fair to draw people's attention to how they can do better is interesting because it implies that we really should be again over there with the people, with the hoods, giving them a hard time. And I don't actually think that people with the hoods can flourish without some kind of complacency from those of us or complacency that wouldn't be wearing hoods. As far as young people. I mean, there's these general statements such as young people today are stepping up and some are. Whether that's sustained is another question. But also, we're seeing reports of racism from young people that are amazing. There was an auction in a school recently where white students were auctioning off like they had a mock slave auction, auctioning off their fellow students. I mean, you know, we've got lots of examples. And if we kind of keep saying, well, white, young, young people are more progressive, then we're not going to address where their vulnerabilities are. And in fact, white nationalism is recruiting most aggressively among young white males. So if we just think they're fine, they're in good shape, we're leaving them unattended.
Garlinda Burton: [00:18:11] It's so interesting that you would bring that up. We had a situation in the United Methodist Church a couple of years ago where there was a youth event, and it was an interracial youth event. Of course, most of the people were white because most of our members in the in the United States are white. But there were Latino students and Latina students who were subjected to, they were supposed to be doing some sort of prayer activity where you handed a prayer request to one another. And I think the Latin students were getting messages about build the wall and get out of our country and that kind of thing at a church event. And, you know, one of the first reactions from parents and sponsors were, oh, well, they didn't mean it or, you know, this is a time for education, and we need to we need to help our young people learn. And it was more about protecting the young white people who were doing this than protecting the Latin students that were the subject of it. So I am resonating with what you're saying about, you know, there's got to be some complicity on the part of folks who are not wearing the hoods and excuse making that allow these kinds of things to happen. Even in our churches where we are supposed to understand racism is sin and understand that we are to be battling sinfulness in order to be reliable witnesses to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So that was a that was an example of what you're describing, is making excuses for making these blanket statements that because our children are more likely to be in interracial situations than maybe we were, that they're getting better. And that may be part of the challenge that we face in working with allies.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:20:08] Yeah, you know, it's a highly adaptive system. So, you know, and it can tolerate changes, it can tolerate progress, and it will also keep on keeping on in the face of those things. So for example, we had our first black president and look where we are in this country following our first black president so we can make progress and then the system adapts to that progress. So, sure, some young people may be having a greater consciousness and so forth. But again, as you're saying, we can't be complacent about that.
Garlinda Burton: [00:20:48] So what are the roadblocks that you think? What are some specific roadblocks that you think are preventing well-intentioned white people from becoming real allies and sustaining that allyship? What is it that well-meaning white friends are still not getting that that they must get in order for us to move the needle on dismantling racism?
Robin DiAngelo: [00:21:14] I think this idea that there's a choir, that there could ever be a choir of people who have arrived, who are enlightened, who are woke, who are finished, that has to be challenged, that racism will not end in my lifetime. Every inch that I seek to push against my socialization, it comes right back at me. This is not happening in a vacuum. We're being reinforced all the time. There are very real consequences for challenging racism, for breaking with white solidarity. And so we have to see ourselves as lifelong learners in this. And all too often those of us who identify in some kind of way as progressive don't aren't lifelong learners. I imagine you've heard as a form of evidence of somebody's lack of racism that they marched in the sixties. So based on an act that they engaged in 60 years ago, before we even knew that race wasn't biological, they see themselves as certified, as free of racism for the rest of their lives, and you need to see them that way, too. So let's talk about that for a moment. The kinds of evidence, you asked me earlier, some examples of kind of nice racism are the kind of evidence that white people offer up to credential ourselves as free of racism. And it's if you understand systemic racism, this evidence is ridiculous. It's not convincing. But we don't even know that like that. Right. They're thinking that you're conveying something that you're not conveying and that you're actually conveying that you're probably not going to be very open. You know, I've established with you that I'm not racist because I just told you I marched in the sixties. So we're done there. And any information to the contrary is probably not going to land so, so well with me. So let's look at what we offer up. I march in the sixties. I'm from Canada. Apparently, there are whole regions of the world that racism can't exist. I literally heard people say, I'm not racist. I'm from Boston.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:23:34] What does that tell you? If you think that Boston. I would say you haven't been listening to black folks in Boston. I had a black roommate in college. I work on a very diverse team. I speak several languages. I've traveled extensively. Why else am I not racist? I'm sure you've heard all of these things.
Garlinda Burton: [00:23:55] I adopted an Asian child. You know, I adopted. My son is married to a Latina. Yeah.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:24:05] In almost all of this, evidence rests on proximity. Right. I am near. Black people have been near. Black people can respectfully engage, smile at black people when I pass them on the street. Therefore, I'm free of racism. And that brings us back to that question. I wish every white person who feels defensive about this would ask themselves, which is what is the criteria by which I would grant that somebody is racist based on that evidence? A racist can't tolerate proximity to black people. And I can assure you that even white nationalists can tolerate proximity and can communicate respectfully when they need to across race.
Garlinda Burton: [00:24:52] Oh yeah. I when I was in college, I worked at a company in North Carolina and one of my coworkers was an avowed member of the Ku Klux Klan. And we could still communicate to do our work. And he was actually very cordial in his limited way. But I mean, we were cordial to one another. So, you know, I'm from the Deep South, so I've grown up in some proximity to white folks and white folks to me and able to get along, you know, as long as either I knew my place or, you know, didn't push into their place or, you know, I'm a little older, a little younger than that. So, you know, but that that's real. I work with people all the time who are racist and get along very well with them in, you know, in varying degrees. So proximity itself is not an inoculation against racism.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:25:56] And I imagine that you've heard plenty of white people think that it is and offer that up. Yeah. As their evidence. You know, you had asked me earlier what I addressed in nice racism that I hadn't addressed in white fragility or what I did different. So besides kind of helping with the how do we do it differently? I have a chapter called Why It's okay to generalize about white people as definitely felt like I. Let's take that on right away. Yeah. No, that seems to cause a white fragility meltdown generalizing about white people.
Garlinda Burton: [00:26:32] That was a challenge for me, and it was a challenge for me. I'm interested in your thesis. It was.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:26:38] Like, well, did the chapter help with it or.
Garlinda Burton: [00:26:42] It did. It did. But it realized that it pushed against even my notion of what it means to be, you know, sometimes that that the Christianity tells you that you, you know, you need to give people a chance at an opportunity. You need to see them as individuals. And but sometimes we are we are discouraged from looking at the systemic realities, because it's really a lot of times Christianity, I think, falsely is talking about only individual infraction or individual sin. And we don't like to talk about corporate sin. And so, yeah, it was it pushed me, and it was very helpful.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:27:28] Oh, good. One of the things that I have noticed is that white people will often take whatever out works and put on the table whatever pretty much closes the conversation. So if we're not saying, why can't we all be individuals, we're saying why can't we all just be human? They don't have to be rational or to make sense together, but whatever works. So let me for the why can't we all just be human? Let me say we are, of course, all human, but we don't live on the spiritual plane. We live on the physical plane and on the physical plane in the here and now. Our society is deeply separate and unequal by race. And if we want to usher in that beautiful spiritual paradise that many have prophesied. We have to address the inequality and the here and now. Now, clearly, everyone is an individual at the same time. And I don't know everybody. But as a sociologist, I'm very comfortable making observations about patterns. Patterns exist. If you don't fit the pattern, great. But the exception is what speaks to the rule. Right? And I am sharing common observable describable, well reported on and well complained about by black people patterns that white people have. You know, and so we have to be willing to grapple with the shared collective experience.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:29:08] We are individuals. We are also members of social groups who would deny that the moment you and I were born, and it was declared female, that a whole set of socialization was set into place. And you can resist it and you can challenge it, but you have to resist it and challenge it because you cannot avoid it. You are literally socialized differently. They put you in a blanket that was different, you know, based on that categorization. And those are shared messages. We get the same blankets. I may be a different kind of girl than you are, but we've got that same blanket. So. So why not be willing to grapple with the collective experiences, the messages that everybody is getting? And if you want to be an individual, then ask yourself, okay, whatever you think made you an exception or makes you different, just ask yourself, how did being white shape how I experience what I think accepts exempts me from this system? I grew up poor, I'm queer, I have a disability. How does being white shape how I experience poverty or queerness or disability? Because if I was black and disabled. I'd be having a different experience than if I'm white and disabled, because if I'm white and disabled, I am not also dealing with racism.
Garlinda Burton: [00:30:37] That's a very strong point. And I think when we talk about intersections of oppression, one of the sticking points sometimes in working with white allies is that we want to universalize the experiences of women, of people with disabilities, of poor people, of people who are LGBTQ. Plus, I mean, we want to say that everybody has that experience regardless of race. And I think the reality is and what we know from our interactions with our own people is that that's not true. You know, there are of course, there are points of commonality. And that's the whole point of looking at intersections of identity and oppression to see where we have shared concerns, shared strengths. At the same time, it's also to understand our particular frames of reference are particular places of oppression and identity by understanding that there are places where we come together and places that we are not the same. We definitely have that concern in the church and it's a reality. Yes, we are all human. I find that it's a very interesting argument these days, as we had recently had a conversation about critical race theory and some of the pushback that white people have against critical race theory. And some people of color as well is that we're supposed to be all human beings. And talking about difference causes us not to see each other as human.
Garlinda Burton: [00:32:24] I find it interesting because I remember as a young person seeing signs and watching people protest about race mixing and that it was against the Bible, it was against God. And then the people of color and our allies were saying, but aren't we all human? You know, in Martin Luther King's march, you know, I am a man. I am a woman. I'm a human being. I'm a person. And so now to have that conversation with people pushing back against teaching the truth about our racialized experience in this country by saying, well, we don't need to be drawing attention to these differences because we are the human race. I just find it very interesting and a little bit confusing. And in our in our Christian settings, most of our mainstream Christian churches are segregated by race. Very much so. The United Methodist Church and the United States, I think it's 90% white in a nation that is growing more and more multicolored. And so we obviously are not doing the work that we need to do. And most of our congregations are multiracial in the way they operate. So and we have there's a lot of economic disparity between churches of color and white churches. So there's all this disparity here that we just don't seem to want to acknowledge as a roadblock to real allyship and working together.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:34:01] Yeah. You know, a few things came to mind as I was listening to you. And one is a question that's never failed me in my efforts to unpack how do we keep getting the outcomes we're getting when most individual white people are going to say, I'm not racist? Right. And that question isn't, is this true or false right or wrong? But the question is, how does it function? What happens in the conversation? So during King's time, why can't we all be human? And how did that how did that end up functioning? Colorblindness. Right. That led to colorblindness the way it was interpreted. And now, you know, well, why can't we all be different? And what does that lead to? Let's not acknowledge it also is a form of colorblindness. Right. Let's not proceed as if these differences matter. And so it reminds me of the response to Black Lives Matter. As all lives matter, all lives should matter, but not all lives do matter in the current society. So let's look at the lives that haven't mattered and try to change that. So yes, we are all human, but we are not all seen as human. So let's get real about that and let's change that.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:35:21] You know, we talked earlier about you and I are both being assigned female at birth, and we were. Both wrapped in a pink blanket, and I was also assigned white, and you were assigned black. And that meant that we could have predicted whether my mother and I were going to survive my birth. We could predict how long I'm going to live. We could predict how long you're going to live. And those are different predictions for us, because we may be both girls, but we are different races. This intersection, intersecting identities matter. Resmaa Menakem is someone I deeply admire. He's a black man who is a racial trauma specialist and therapist. And he says, I'm going to quote him The white body is the supreme standard by which all bodies, humanity shall be measured. And if the white body is the supreme standard of humanity, then every hue away from that white body is a step away from human that that is white supremacy. And all of us internalize that. We just have to stop denying that and be willing to look at how we've internalized it and how it shapes us.
Garlinda Burton: [00:36:48] Yeah, I. I hear you. I do. I was thinking when you were talking, though, and this relates to a critique I read in The Guardian last week about nice racism and about white fragility. I you talk about our differences and our similarities. The fact of the matter is that I was raised middle class and I was raised middle class in the fifties and the sixties and the Deep South, but I was raised middle class. I mean, my family was not poor. I went to college. I've always had success in my in my personal and my professional pursuits. And so the critique that the concern that I think I've heard expressed is that sometimes your premise seems to maybe infantilize black, indigenous and other people of color and assume that we have no power or no agency while white people have all the social power and agency. And this particular critic pointed to the black middle class and upper class folks and other people of color who have achieved academic, economic and political successes despite racism, particularly in the Asian and Southeast Asian communities. In many measures, they are more well educated and have higher household incomes than even white folks in their communities. So the argument is, is your thesis do you feel your thesis is maybe an oversimplification of the racial dynamics? And aren't you downplaying the agency that BIPOC people actually have?
Robin DiAngelo: [00:38:37] Yeah. I am very clear that that BIPOC people and actually this is a great example of there are differences between, say, Asian heritage people and African heritage people. So maybe for the purposes of our conversation, let's focus on black people have personal power, you know, have different forms of power, but they do not collectively have institutional power. Black people cannot enact laws that literally limit my life, but my group can and has enacted laws that limit yours. Right. And look at Barack Obama during his presidency. He was arguably the most powerful man if not in this country, in the world. So clearly, you know, upper class, clearly powerful. And he endured levels of racism that are jaw dropping. It didn't protect him from experiencing racism so successful, so called successful. And certainly there are middle and upper class successful black people. But that doesn't mean they don't experience racism, I think. Why should they have to experience racism in the face of that success? And notice that my subtitle of this book is How White Progressives Perpetuate Racial Harm. I can still do racial harm to an upper class black person and cause them pain and anguish. The other thing that I would say about the concern about infantilizing, I I'm not really writing about things that black people haven't been writing about and asking us to stop doing for decades and decades. I am writing about it from a different position, from the position of that of those who inflict the harm. But I could name so many books right now, so many deeply respected black scholars who do say that the dynamics I'm writing about are real and that they would wish we would stop engaging in them. So that's my response to Does it flatten or infantilize?
Garlinda Burton: [00:40:57] It's interesting that you could say that because another point that you make in this book and I think you make it in white fragility, too, is understanding that people of color have been saying these things and calling out these things for centuries, you know, since before since before the Civil War ended, you know, there were people speaking out against the human dehumanization of black people, of native people, of, you know, people of Latin, Latino and Latinx descent. People have been speaking out against these things, particularly people of color. And your voice has come to the fore. And you talk about how part of your work is to speak to, for lack of a better word, to speak to your people, because many times people of color are not heard in the same way. And I'd like you to say a little bit more about that, why you stepped into this breach, because I know you've gotten some criticism for it. You're just you know; she's just saying stuff that we've been saying all along. So why is it important that that that kind of voice comes forward? And I know you're not the only one. I mean, I could be others.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:42:14] Right? Yes. Things that you've been saying all along and from a different angle that's been missing for far too long. We have offloaded all of this onto black people and other people of color as if we are innocent of all of this. Gosh, I don't know anything about it. I'll just sit back and observe. I'll take no risk. I'll display no vulnerability. You do all the heavy lifting from your position, so we need to be at that table. We play a powerful part. I mean, in some ways we could say the responsibility of ending racism is on us because we created this system, and we willed this system. And yes, there are many tensions in this work, and one of them is in order to de-center whiteness, you have to make it visible, expose it, name it, show it. Remember that four white people were in a current that moves us along. So it's very difficult to see. I think you can you probably know more about whiteness than I ever will because you swim against that current. You've had to know my reality. You've had to navigate my reality from a very early age in a way that, I'm sorry to say, I can be seen as qualified to do or lead virtually anything or anyone with no understanding of your reality. I could be the head. Of a major corporation that has in their mission and vision statement. We value diversity, and I have no ability to engage in that conversation. Right.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:43:49] So in that way, of course, you have a more depth of understanding, but I have a piece that you don't have. And sadly, the reality is, well, we know there's a lot of defensiveness from white people on this topic, and I certainly invoke it. But less so. Again, it's harder to dismiss. I do want to make a point because sometimes things get said and they just become the truth. And this idea that it's a zero sum game, if I wrote a book on racism and it's on the bestseller list and nobody is going to read anybody else, and I'm blocking other people. Over the last five years, 32 books have been on the New York Times best-selling list on race. 29 of them have been written by black people. Only three have been written by white people. And one of those is mine. One of them was on the on for one week during the summer of 2020. And some of those books have been on for years, like Michelle Alexander's, The New Jim Crow and Beverly Tatum's. Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria and Bryan Stevenson's just mercy. It's simply not true that people are not reading black writers and black authors. Mine resonated in a particular way and during a time when many more white people were getting involved and it helped with the question of what does it mean to be white? Which is a piece that I offer. And here we are.
Garlinda Burton: [00:45:26] Well, thanks for being honest about that, because I know that some criticism that has been leveled against you and I have to say personally, it is helpful. Not every word is helpful by every person, but to me it is helpful to have white people taking responsible for this responsibility for this. It is helpful for white people to take responsibility for doing the anti-racism work because the work does often fall on people of color. And what happens many times as that, we're asked to, you know, sort of lay our souls bare, tell our stories, talk about our experiences, only to have them negated or dismissed by white people. And that gets to be exhausting or we're asked to fill a quota. This is happening a lot in in Christian circles now. People have gotten a little bit woke and I use that word advisedly and they want to have anti-racism workshops, or they want to read a book or read a book, or they want to do a couple of sessions and then they've done anti-racism. When the plea, I think, is that we continue to do our work and believe that we can march toward eradicating racism if we will stay the course. So I personally find it refreshing to hear from a lot of different voices about anti-racism. There are a couple of books that I've read by Native American and Latin X authors on the subject of that particular those particular brands of racism. And I, I find that just very refreshing that the conversation, of course, people of color can take the lead in the conversation, but white racism is really a white people's problem. And so it's refreshing to me to see white people engaging in the work and pushing other white folks to do the work.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:47:37] So I'm glad to know that. Thank you.
Garlinda Burton: [00:47:40] I'm all about it. Speaking of that, you know, I talked about this today. You know, the people of faith as a as a Christian, I understand racism as a sin. And I understand that racism is a sin that requires us to come together at some point across lines of race to confess and repent and repair and rebuild what racism has destroyed. I still believe that we are called as people saved by Jesus Christ to make the world better, to bring God's kingdom on earth. And I also understand that there's a heart change that needs to happen in individuals and working on our personal relationships as well. So I wanted to ask you how important or how, how, how the personal, interracial and multi. Racial relationships coincide with our corporate work. What is it about the personal that that folks need to do in order to inform the collective work that needs to be done and particularly around interracial work? Because we got, we're saying white people need to do their work. Is there a place for interracial work and what does that look like?
Robin DiAngelo: [00:49:07] The one thing I would say about the concept of original sin, the difference is Christians believe you're born with it. And I would say with racism, you're born into it, right? You're not automatically racist, but you're born into a society in which it's already set up for you and already shapes you. And I think that distinction may offer, in the case of anti-racist work, offer more space for the possibility that it can be overcome. Right. It can be challenged in our lifetimes. So as far as personal to corporate, I'm very clear that people are not institutions, but institutions are made up of people. And another critique I get is, well, you're not addressing structural. And of course, my you know, my thought in my head is I can't possibly address everything. This is my piece of the puzzle. But, nonetheless.
Garlinda Burton: [00:50:07] People make somebody else.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:50:10] People make up corporations. So you're not going to change policies and practices if you don't have a consciousness that acknowledges that there's problems with policies and practices. You can take a corporation and you can add a whole bunch of people of color that weren't there before. But if you've done nothing to address the consciousness of all the white people that really set that whole thing up, you're introducing those people of color into a hostile climate, into a climate that, you know, there's a lot of unaddressed resentment. There's a lot of back talk about diversity hires. We just had an ESPN moment where a white woman was overheard saying, well, sure, we need diversity, but not on my back. Right. You've got all of that filtering into the culture of that organization. You've got to start to also work on the awareness of the people who really do control the table, who set that table and control that table. And so that's where I see the connection being. As far as our work, I think we have work that we must do together, but I also think we have work that we can only do separately.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:51:25] So many companies, institutions just throw people into a room and say, hey, let's have a dialogue on race. And there is so much hurt that happens in those dialogues because you have white people who can't even answer the question, what does it mean to be white? And you put them in a room and start having them talk with black people who are frustrated, who have been thinking deeply about this. Their whole lives and toes are getting stepped on and just things don't tend to go well. There needs to be a little bit of education and consciousness raising, I think on the part of white people, a little bit of our own work that you don't really need to have to, you know, bear witness to. And people of color need space to just get away from the gaze, the pressure, you know, talk about what you want to talk about that you don't want to talk about or risk talking about in front of white people. So some of it needs to be done separately. And ultimately, of course, that is to enable us to bridge and come together in more constructive ways.
Garlinda Burton: [00:52:33] Yeah, very helpful. You talked about I think this is one of the things, again, that church groups and religious groups are doing that may not be helpful. And that is, you know, hiring a bunch of people or saying we have an open policy and kind of throwing people of color to the wolves because the system has not been the system has not been made ready for an influx of people of color at leadership tables at the tables of decision making. I was when you were talking, I was thinking of Austin Channing Brown's book, I'm Still Here. And her whole book is about being in white spaces where a large part of her job was basically to integrate or to bring diversity to white spaces. And some of the struggles that she had and some of the trauma she experienced. And so that would speak to. And I think she's. Speaks to, as you are speaking to white people, particularly white people of faith, doing continued self-work and collective work, both personal and systemic before, you know, bringing People of Color into the mix and have them picking up and carrying the load of the anti-racism work. So I really appreciate that, that, that perspective in both of your books, you, you reference a lot your own continuing journey to anti-racism and authentic and effective allyship. I notice that as a common thread. Robin So how are you working with people of color specifically to continue your own anti-racism work? Because I think some of our white family will want to know, so what do you do? You've talked about doing your own self work. How do you work with people of color and what does that require and how do you know that it's working? How do we know if it's if our white family are doing it right?
Robin DiAngelo: [00:54:50] Well, first you want to you want to build trust. So in there kind of is it the chicken or the egg? Right. As you build trust, you have more accountability. So there's a couple of ways that I seek to be accountable. And one is that there there's a circle of people of color around me who have agreed to mentor me, to hold me accountable. They have agreed to talk through issues and struggles with me. I can reach out when I am struggling. I can receive feedback from them. Whenever I reach out, I actually offer to pay them. This is this is deep intellectual and emotional labor that you should never be expected to be given without some kind of acknowledgement. Several of them are like, No, we're friends. I don't want you to pay me. And then I say, Well, I'm going to donate for the amount of time that we spent to a racial justice organization. Would you like to choose, or would you like me to? That's just a really important piece that I want to have people hear. I also have a group of white people who are all involved in this work that I meet with on a weekly basis. So I'm in my own affinity group and we bring our struggles and our challenges, and we challenge each other, and we share resources.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:56:05] That's also really important. And how we know is often if you are white and you have relationships across race and one, you don't talk about race, and two, you don't get feedback or you got feedback one time and you never got it again. That's not a good sign. It could be. You got it. You got it. One time you didn't respond well. And so the person's made a decision. I'm not going there with them. And they are probably you probably don't have as deep a relationship as you think you have. You know, if they're particularly black people and I say that because I'm going to be speaking in very general terms now, but there are cultural differences between different communities of color. Generally, from an early age, black people are talking openly with their children about racism. Sometimes the Asian immigrant experiences keep your nose down, you know, work hard, don't make waves, and everything will be fine. And they don't talk openly about racism. So if you're if you're white and you're in relationship with black people who aren't talking about race in front of you, who aren't ever kind of challenging you, that's something to notice.
Garlinda Burton: [00:57:18] That's really interesting. Say more about paying people because that's an interesting piece that we often hear. Many times people of color in church circles are expected to give away our knowledge about anti racism. And our agency, for example, in the United in the United Methodist Church is one of the lowest funded agencies in the denomination. It's always been one of the lowest funded agencies, along with the Women's Justice Agency. And oftentimes we talk to people of color, particularly women of color, who are asked to give away their expertise for nothing. Why is that an important topic of conversation?
Robin DiAngelo: [00:58:10] Keep in mind that you're being asked to give that across a relationship of power and across a history of harm. There's an image I often show in my workshops of the House Freedom Caucus under the Trump administration. It's this conference table with like 30 white men in suits, and they're there talking when the picture was taken, they're talking about the health care bill. So they are literally sitting at the table. We're making decisions that affect the lives of people who are not sitting at that table, who they are not in relationship with. And if we're being honest, they've never been given the message it's important to be in relationship with. It's just a powerful visual. Now, I also show one with a classic board of a nonprofit that's all white women. So I'm not picking on white men, but you can't get a more amplified image. And then I start talking through the dynamics, you know, speaking to white women, for example. Now imagine they somebody says we really need some diversity. Right. Do you think the whole room enthusiastically is going to agree with that? Nope. It's probably going to take several years. And we need a focus group, and we need, you know, on and on and on. But finally they say, okay, we need some diversity. And so they tap you on the shoulder and say, we need some diversity. Will you come into our group? And just imagine walking into that room. I wish you could see the visual, but I'm telling you, it doesn't sound good to me.
Garlinda Burton: [00:59:41] I've been there. I've been there.
Robin DiAngelo: [00:59:43] Incredibly intimidating. But so now imagine you agreed to do it. And you keep notes because they said they wanted to know if there were any inadvertent bias going on. Probably have a pretty long list within a couple of months. And you raise your hand and you read that list out loud in front of all those white men. In this case, you know how you think that's going to go? I mean, I can't imagine that it would go well. You'd be met with silence. Silence from a position of power is a power move. I would not interpret their silence upon me, giving them feedback about how I experience that room. I wouldn’t experience their silence as supportive. I would assume hostility. You're going to get other ones who are going to argue with you, debate with you. You know, you're going to get other ones who don't say a word. They come up to you afterwards and say, Wow, I really agreed with what you had to say. And then you say, Well, why didn't you say that in there? Boy, could I have used that. And they look right at you, and they say, Well, I didn't feel safe, right? I mean, I could just go on about all the dynamics.
Robin DiAngelo: [01:00:58] You're asking people to take risks and exhibit a level of vulnerability to open their chest and say, here are all the tender hurts and you're not giving anything in return. It's like you're observing somebody. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard black people do that and white people just stare at them in silence. Right. You need to compensate that degree of emotional and intellectual and spiritual labor. I share a story in the new book about a black woman who was asked to do just that and said, I will do it if you come with me, Robyn. And I just watched her over the weeks, agonizing about having to go into this room filled with white people and talk to them about how she experienced racism while they just sat back in their chairs comfortably and received it. The fruits of her labor. It feels like a form of colonialism, to be blunt. Acknowledging to pay in some kind of way is a way to say this has value, and I'm really willing to sacrifice or be uncomfortable to convey that to you.
Garlinda Burton: [01:02:18] You've been doing this work for 25 years and there are white people listening. Part of our white Christian family, particularly, who are beginning just beginning this work. And so I want you to think back over those 25 years and think about the first steps that you took and speak on what are some first steps that other members of our white family, particularly our white family of faith, need to take to begin dealing honorably with the realities of racism and becoming an ally, becoming a person who is helpful in this journey.
Robin DiAngelo: [01:02:56] Yeah, well, keep in mind that it's a lot like water dripping on a rock. That's how I think about it. I didn't get it the first, second, third. I had moments of, oh, you know, fish out of water, and then you just kind of sink right back into the familiar status quo. So it just has to be sustained. And so start your education progress process. So the first thing you can do is think about it like getting in shape. So if you were to say to me, I want to be in shape on Monday, I would say, well, that will not be happening, but you could start on Monday. And it's not one single thing. It's a multifaceted process. You have to do Diet X or. Size, stress reduction, sleep patterns, right? All of these different things. And then you don't just arrive and now you're in shape and you're done. You have to maintain being in shape. So just keep that, you know, big picture. And then I would ask why people take out a piece of paper and make a list of why you don't know what to do about racism in 2021. How have you managed not to know the answer to that question and make your list? And probably the first thing on there was I wasn't educated on this. I don't know people of color I don't talk about. So whatever it is, make your list and there's your map. And just like getting in shape, nothing on it will be quick or easy, but everything on that list can be addressed. Three key resources I want to make a point of. One is Layla Saad's book, Me and White Supremacy Workbook, which is excellent.
Robin DiAngelo: [01:04:44] I love books or programs where you do it every day. A little something every day, right? Because like we said, the forces are always coming at you to reinforce the status quo. You need the constant water dripping. Dr. Eddie Moore has a 21 day racial equity habit building challenge. You can do that with work group. My daughter did it at her workplace. It was very valuable. Every day for 21 days you're doing something and then debriefing with your group. I also want to recommend this book by Robert P. Jones called White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity. Do you sounds like you're familiar with his work. Yes. His work is so specific to the church where I don't use a faith frame in what I do. Read everything you can get. Just start. Start filling your read. Peggy McIntosh's Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack. We're in an amazing time. A terrifying time in terms of the backlash or what Carol Anderson so powerfully calls white rage. I recommend Carol Anderson's book. I also recommend a book called Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People about Racism by Reni Eddo-Lodge, which kind of just shares the frustrating aspects of trying to talk to so called progressive white people. Yeah, just start surrounding yourself and your head and Google right now there's you could find a list 103 Things White People Can Do About Racism. You can go to my website and find resources. It's a great time in terms of resources for white people wanting to start this project a process or to stay motivated.
Garlinda Burton: [01:06:40] Thank you for that. Those are some great starts. I'm going to wrap up by asking you about specifics of Nice Racism. Your books have always indicated that you are constantly on your own journey to living out antiracism, and you always seem to share something that you've learned or a new discovery. So what? What did you learn and discover as you were writing Nice Racism? Were there some new learnings that added to your store?
Robin DiAngelo: [01:07:15] I think it's the learnings have come from what surrounded the. The white fragility and even thinking about releasing nice racism. And that is the intensity of a feeling people have about this topic. Right. I think I always knew that. But still, I was stunned. I felt naive about the forces that are invested in the status quo are deep and they will push back very hard. But the forces that are invested in challenging racism are also deep and they will hold you accountable to get it just right. And all of that is really challenging. I've had moments of wanting to say, I can't do this anymore, and then I say, That's exactly how that works. You don't get to step out of this or to give up. It's in some ways a lot like a runaway train. And you just holding on and rolling and just doing your best.
Garlinda Burton: [01:08:22] Well, I think that the book is provocative and helpful and challenging and disturbing all at once. I think it's a continued push for all of us, but particularly for white folks. It's a continued push for us to talk plainly about the racism that keeps us from being the people that we want to be, that hampers our society from being what we could be and even hampers the church from being the witness that we should be. And so I thank you so much, Robin. It is always a delight. I am always energized to talk with you. The book is Nice Racism: How Progressive White People Perpetuate Racial Harm. It is just come out. It is by Robin DiAngelo, and I suggest that you get it. We are so happy to have so many of you write into us to let us know that you are enjoying these podcasts. We ask that you follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. If you have ideas for the podcast, please let us know. You can email us at podcasts@gcorr.org. Again, for the General Commission on Religion and Race and our series Expanding the Table. I am Garlinda Burton. Thank you so much for joining us.