“Expanding the Table” Podcast - Season 1, Episode 5
GCORR’s Award-Winning Podcast on Practicing Anti-Racism
Episode 5: Moving Your Church from Book Studies to Anti-Racist Actions
*This episode was awarded 1st place in the podcast category by the United Methodist Association of Communicators in 2022.
In this episode, we ask three clergypersons leading mostly white and racially diverse congregations how they are moving from first awareness and books studies about racism to putting Christian anti-racism into action in their congregations and our communities.
Joining us for this conversation are:
The Rev. J.P. Hong, lead pastor of Christ Crossman United Methodist Church in Falls Church, Virginia
The Rev. Sallie Suby-Long, minister for healing and wellness and director of the Center for Spiritual Engagement at St. Luke’s United Methodist Church in Denver, Colorado
The Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy, senior pastor of McKendree United Methodist Church in Nashville, Tenn.
Rev. J.P. Hong
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long, Ph.D.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy
Listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and Amazon Music. You can watch the video podcast here.
Season 1, Episode 5 Transcript:
Opening Credits: [00:00:01] You're listening to Expanding the Table where we share experiences to inspire you in your work towards racial justice.
Garlinda Burton: [00:00:18] Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of Expanding the Table, the podcast series by the General Commission on Religion and Race. Today we're going to be talking about how churches can move from having book studies and discussions about racism to anti-racist action to make their churches and communities better. And we are delighted to have with us today as our experts the Reverend JP Hong, who is lead pastor of Christ Crossman, United Methodist Church in Falls Church, Virginia. The Reverend Sallie Suby-Long, who is Minister for Healing and Wellness and director of the Center for Spiritual Engagement at St Luke's United Methodist Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. And the Reverend Dr. Stephen Handy, senior pastor and chief innovation and connection officer at McKendree United Methodist Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Welcome, everyone.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:01:21] Great to be here.
Garlinda Burton: [00:01:22] So good to see you all. So good to see you. So let's just jump right into it. In the last couple of years, especially, our nation and our world have been focused on what many of us have known to be a challenge for much longer than that. And that is the challenge of addressing racism both in our churches and then through our Christian discipleship, to make the world better and address racism in our communities beyond the church. And each of you in your churches and your congregations and in your communities have moved beyond only book studies and discussions to actual action. And I think many congregations want to do something but may be stuck in that place of reading and discussion groups. So I want to ask each of you about what you're doing in your church right now. And I'm going to start with Stephen. Stephen, you're here in Nashville. I know that your congregation is a predominantly white congregation in downtown Nashville. Tell me more about what your church has been doing.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:02:37] Well, thank you, Garlinda. That is a provocative question in today's cultural context. Several years ago, we actually started with a book study, and it was James Cone's book around the Cross and Lynching Tree. And after having that study, we decided to explore whether there were lynchings in downtown Nashville. We walked that trail, and we prayed over those places. And then we went to the memorial lynching memorial lynching in Montgomery, Alabama, I believe took a group there, and they came back on fire. They came back saying, Pastor, this is necessary work. And we couched it as not just necessary work, but this is work of discipleship. Right. And then we reminded people, because we do communion every Sunday, we reminded people that this was part of that baptismal vow, right, to resist evil, injustice and oppression in any form as it presents itself. So we had a theological grounding for this work. So in the midst of all that, as we were doing these studies, we connected with some organizations that have been doing this work for a long time in Nashville, like the Equity Alliance group, Gideon's Army, those people who were in those places and had what I call street credit as a downtown church, we needed to partner with someone who had street credit.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:04:06] And all of a sudden, we are engaged in protests. We are now meeting with public elected officials because part of this work has to be around public policy. And then we partner with because we're multiracial Multiclass Church, we partnered with predominantly white churches that wanted to do this work alongside of us. So we're in this place now. We actually have a meeting this Friday with some senators, and we don't say you have to be Republican or Democrat or independent. We say we want to meet because racialism is killing us. It is it is not only destroying the outside of the church, it's destroying the insides of the church. And so we have to deal with racism within our church. So we now hold people at a high level, what we call accountability. And even in our own conference, I've called our bishop and ask him to do some intercultural competency work with the Cabinet. So there will be an awareness around this work. So all of our life groups are planted in communities doing this anti-racism work. They don't have to come to the pastor. They don't have to sit in a meeting. We've given them longitude and latitude and liberty to do this work well.
Garlinda Burton: [00:05:23] Thanks, Stephen. That's great. JP, I'm going to come to you, or I know that you, like Stephen, have been partnering with community groups through your congregation as well. So how does that work at Falls Church? What have you been doing as a congregation?
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:05:41] So I think a lot of what Stephen has shared in terms of congregational entering into engagement is a pattern that we're following and we're probably still a little bit on the earlier stage just so that church is out there listening. We're all at different plots and plotting points on this. So we last summer would be when we began engaging in the issue study and the books following again the horrific murder of George Floyd and all that ensued. And then this summer we did a whole church, kind of the theological bridging by looking at scripture and looking at the issues of race and conflicts that arises there. And so we're just kind of finishing that cycle of really laying foundations that are issue and then theologically oriented while that's been happening. The other thing we've been doing is what you're speaking about finding venues and avenues, pathway towards connecting with the community around us. And so at the level of leadership, we've been having conversations with our local police force, getting to know our police chief. We've had several meetings now to strategize how the community might be engaged in conversations about meaningful reform and accountability. And to her credit, our chief here has been very open to the value of that versus simply being resistant. And that's been a meaningful, collaborative work of various ecumenical faith community leaders representing their faith communities, engaging with the local police chief.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:07:20] As that's happening, you know, the whole kind of Wesleyan scripture in one hand and a newspaper in the other. I think the other thing that's stretching us is realizing that it's as much as there is an issue that got us on this road. When you enter that road, you see there are multiple communities that's part of this work of enacting justice, particularly with the Black Lives movement. And that issue, we try to partner with local expressions. There's an organization here in the D.C. area that are director of family ministries. Try to get us connected with its let's see, what is that group called? It's called Community Shoulders. They've been trying to be in the midst of kind of the tensions that can be created when there is law enforcement on one side and demonstrators on the other to try to see if there are bridging places. And so we invited the founder of that organization to come and speak to us. And from the get-go, let's be honest, it's a challenging thing to get a whole community church in terms of activity and participation to all of these. And so that's been one of the lessons. We're a small church, and so if you're a small church out there averaging 40, 50, 60 people on a week, we try to celebrate when we get a hand and, literally we mean a handful of people to show. And so when we did the scripture studies, y'all didn't have a choice. You come on Sunday and that's what you get. But these other efforts to introduce other community members, get one or two folks from our church to step up a little bit further. It's been those efforts. Find an organization we learn about and find that their ethics or their ethos connects with us. Invite them, partner. See what next steps might mean. With that, I'll just lift up a few more things we've done. As we've done that this summer. We've communicated to our congregation that our leadership, particularly the pastoral staff, is participating in a fast for freedom that had to do with immigration reform and trying to push that forward. Again, our pastor, Julio Hernandez, our associate, is going to be leading a We the People ride, which is a bike trip to the border to better understand the stories that's taking place there. So in that arc, language of awareness and then relationships, that's probably where we're trying to really strengthen ourselves right now, start building those relationships with other community groups, individuals who are engaged in the shared, collaborative needed work of justice building together.
Garlinda Burton: [00:10:02] That's great, JP. A good reminder that a small church, what we define as a small church can have a significant reach when you motivate, whether regardless of the size of the church, there can be significant reach and engagement. That's great to hear. Sally, you and I have worked together before. A few months ago, we were on a panel discussion, an online panel discussion about anti-racism and how to move the needle with people of Christian faith. And I wanted to ask you along the same lines as JP and Stephen, do you recall what the presenting concerns were that got your congregation or your leadership motivated and how did you begin with your congregation once that presenting issue or presenting problem or presenting awareness was made, was made, was made real to you? How did you move forward?
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:11:03] Thank you, Garlinda, for that question. I think it's so helpful for all of us to reflect back and be able to track the things that have really led us to action as well. And truly, it was the shared horror of the murder of George Floyd that while as a community we had done justice work, but it brought us to a very different place within the community. And the response from the congregation, I think, was one of completely stepping in our steps and looking for how to respond, how to look at ourselves honestly, and to recognize any complicity that we have had in the. Process of racism and realizing, I think, how much we didn't know. And that's not to say any of that's about blame. We've all made the reference to we're all at different places. And I think it brought us to a place of knowing that we wanted to dive in much more deeply than we had before. And so we together created a learning community called Brave Spaces with the intention to meet together regularly for conversation that would be honest, that would be authentic and truly, that would support each other in doing some very deep work together. And that was how we began. We did read a number of books. We listen to podcasts. We engaged with other people within our community. And I think the more that we learned, the more we realized we wanted and needed to learn. So books like White Fragility and books like Me and White Supremacy and the 1619 Project and Garlinda, your article that you wrote on the content of our character, all of those things were incredibly instrumental for us, and those conversations, I think, together led us to wanting to learn more and to think about how we could potentially take action.
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:13:24] But I think we also became aware that we had a lot of learning to do to know how we could move toward actions that were honorable and that we needed to be engaged in conversations with people truly to go deeply into that dialogue with each other. And so through that process, we really found that trusting each other and trusting where each person was in their process was a really valuable thing for us. And building our own relationships with one another and acknowledging that in the process we would certainly learn and that we would make missteps and that we would have grace and accountability and the commitment to keep going forward even when that happened and support one another. And so that whole concept of brave spaces, I think it did challenge us to be brave primarily to do the deep internal work that we all felt needed to happen. And that really opened in front of us at that time. And so we were really grateful when we had the opportunity. Garlinda to connect with you and with Ken Brown, Reverend Ken Brown at Trinity UMC, and that is in downtown Denver and with Jordan Lee. And Jordan Lee is a college student at the University of Colorado. Brilliant college student, I might add.
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:14:57] Yes, she truly is. And Jordan was working with a social media process called Unmask the racism that was really geared toward anti-Asian American taking steps to be of help and to obviously, as we all know, how that racism spiked during the pandemic. And so all three of them together truly as leaders and people of color. We're gracious in coaching us. And so that experience, I think, truly did lead us to become more clear and was the catalyst to taking more action and taking action that we felt we had some guidance with so that it could truly be an integrity and that could be in alignment with what we believe and our faith, and that it would be honorable for our friends and colleagues and people of color. And so some of the next steps for us have continued, and I really want to acknowledge that we are very much in process, and we continue to learn. And some of the action steps that have been, I think, especially meaningful have been, as you mentioned, Stephen, the legislative action. We have a number of people who have been very passionate about that at a local level, at a community level and a state level right now. And so several of them have really put lots of effort into helping the rest of us learn about how we can have an impact with legislation. Another thing is I know you mentioned this, JP, and I really appreciate it, is finding out who the people are that we can partner with and learn together that are cross-racial groups of people, and to really engage in building relationships over time that can be meaningful and significant for all of us.
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:16:59] So one of the organizations that we have partnered with is here in Denver called Nine Health. And the focus truly is on proactive health. And we have engaged with them in volunteering. Most recently, it's been helping with the COVID vaccination clinics and really working together with under-served populations that not just under-served populations but partnering with the people in those communities and those neighborhoods. And to continue to learn with one another has been really significant for us. And then I think partnership wise, the other one that we're looking toward and we're very excited about is this dialogue. Dinner and dialogue of race is what it's called. It is something that was developed by the Department of Justice, and its guided conversations over a period of time so that relationships can be built, and hopefully deeper partnerships can be formed and that we can. Listen to one another and hear deeply one another's stories. I really feel like that is that is what makes such a difference when we know each other's stories and can honor that. I think it creates a very different kind of bridge and a different kind of healing and a different kind of possibility for moving forward together and respecting one another and the life experience that we've all had. So those are a few of the things that we are in the midst of at this point.
Garlinda Burton: [00:18:42] Thanks so much, Sally. Stephen?
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:18:45] Garlinda, I want to just jump in here with Sally's comment relative to stories. Some of this work really shouldn't be done. I caution people to jump into this anti-racism work with, first of all, not knowing themselves. So do some history lesson, do some genealogy work on your family. That that is critical because what happens when we jump into the heart attack work as I call it, right, the artery work, the hypertension work. We will lose the dynamic of what it means to be community because we're so focused and angry and frustrated at the system. What we've learned is when we go back and start sharing our individual narratives, tell me the first time you experienced racism. Tell me the first time you acknowledged that you had privilege, right? It becomes human now. And we don't we don't dismiss it as if the problem is out there. The problem is within. And so you do that heavy lifting work. And then you realize the more we talk about this work, we have some connecting points. For instance, in my family, my great grandmother was raped by her owner. And so my color pigmentation, I can trace back to that moment. And it's painful, but it is a part of my history. I didn't I didn't ask for it, but it is who it is. And now I can tell that story when I'm in mixed company with people. The other part for me says, the longer we share stories, there's going to be some intersection. We're going to realize we do have some common points now. We don't have all common points. Right, but we have some and less link into those. And let's be community and build from that baseline.
Garlinda Burton: [00:20:39] I think you've both raised an interesting point because as people who are of Christians, we do want to meet each other one where we are. We do want to share stories and be connected that way. And then we want to move from that into action. We can't stay in that soft fuzzy place all the time at the same time to get traction with folks. And I think particularly white people who have not had to confront racism in the same way that that that connection point is critical not to stay there, but to help move forward and see what privilege is, what institutional racism is, what individualized racism and racial violence has created in our community. So I think that's a really good point. And JP, to that point in your own congregation, I know because I also recently preached at JP's church online and that for a small church, they have an amazing kind of diversity. However, a lot of the things that you are attempting to do as a church reflect, I think in some sense the different identities that are there. And I think that that was something that struck me. And so I wanted to ask you ask all of you, starting with JP, what was it that what was the presenting issue in your own church and community or more than one that that that resonated with folks and wanted people wanted made people want to move forward and do anti-racism discipleship where there's some presenting issues within the congregation that that led to this this awareness and movement.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:22:40] I would bet that many congregations will identify this. We as a church obviously are facing what was supposed to happen in 2020, and then it's supposed to happen in 2021. What's going to happen in 2022? And you all know we're talking about the LGBT inclusion and the estate of our global family and where we will be. So for Christ Crossman the point at which they were compelled to define themselves as it often is, is when there's an issue that comes close to home. Right. It affects a family member. Quote, unquote, church family. And for us, that really was when I entered Christ Crossman three years ago. It's a church that was becoming aware that, in fact, it had a position when it came to the LGBTQ inclusion matter. And so when there were appointed with someone who was their pastoral leader, who did not share that same identity or value, it raised that it elevated that awareness in the same way that when we witnessed George Floyd and that brave person who took the risk to keep recording, it elevated our national conscience. And so the fact that we journeyed through and were compelled to then begin articulating our conviction, which we knew we had but never had to put it in front of us, that for our congregation really was the point at which now we begin to say with other matters. The moment you make a statement born of that issue, which says, We welcome all people. Oh, boy, once you put that sign out, now you've got to live into the truth of that word. And so I think that was a natural place. Then when George Floyd occurred, when migration and issues of immigrants come before us, because you've got a church of 50, you're going to have 50 priorities, even when it comes to the meaning of all. But that personal shared impact first with LGBT inclusion really did give us the way to begin thinking about, well, if all truly is going to mean all justice for one truly needs to incorporate justice for all.
Garlinda Burton: [00:24:49] And were there particular anti-racism concerns that you had in the community that I know that you I remember the Sunday that I worshipped with you, there was conversation about the immigration, the participation participating in the immigration reform group. Was that motivated by anything within the congregation or.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:25:14] Really people bringing to bear their passions, born from their own narratives. And if church is a collection of these narratives that start coming together and building momentum for us with immigration, for example, the church's decision to hire someone for the position of director of family ministries, Pastor Julio Hernandez. Well, he comes with stories. It's his life story. And when he has a position that by virtue of that role is also a platform, then that has a heightened opportunity to give voice and to be heard, which is that even in a small church, decisions of including one person or one voice or one family who is somehow different from the majority can have significant ripples which can grow us. And so even that one individual shout out, Julio, if you're listening to this.
Garlinda Burton: [00:26:12] Shout to Julio!
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:26:12] Out, his presence and the presence of his family has made other issues like the one that you heard there about migration, the shared concern, because we care about him, we are made aware of the other extended families that he has a fit into.
Garlinda Burton: [00:26:29] Right. Stephen and Sally, you both talked about engaging church folks, people who are Christian and who are who are on the road to discipleship, in the public conversation about systemic racism in the political realm. And I know that many times there are Christians out there who think that the church shouldn't be engaged in politics. However, politics are the way that human beings order our lives, and I personally believe that the church needs to be deeply engaged because we are in the people business, we are in the loving people as God loves us business. And so I think some of the work that you've done is obviously critical. Stephen, first of all, how did you decide how did your church decide to begin talking to politicians? What was what was the presenting concern that made your church go from we're having this internal conversation, internal, you know, coming to a realization to engaging our political leaders. And how did that happen?
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:27:45] Yes. So when Trayvon Martin passed, he actually passed a day after my birthday, February 25th in 2012. And I remember that Sunday I lit a candle. And I realized over time at this stage I would be lighting a candle every week. And the congregation realized, well, wait a minute, because I said I'm not lighting any more candles. We have to engage people beyond our walls. And I said, you have friends who you need to be in conversations with. I have friends I call clergy who may not want to talk about this issue, but we need to. We've got politicians who we elect to represent us in the marketplace. And we will see them when we elect them. And then we won't see them again until they ask to be re-elected. And so as part of my Christian faith, part of my Wesleyan reality is this nasty word called accountability. And so I get to hold my brothers and sisters accountable for what they said they would do in following Jesus. Right. So when people say keep politics out of it, then I have to say, when you have to keep Jesus out of it, because Jesus was a political revolutionary, and we don't want to talk about that Jesus. Right. That that Jesus is way too radical. We just want to talk about the Jesus who on occasion allow the children to come around, fed some hungry folk.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:29:19] That's the Jesus. He's kind of what I would probably say really domesticated. That's the Jesus we love to affiliate with, but the one who turns over tables inside the temple and probably more that it's not recorded. Right? Everything's not recorded outside the temple. We had to come to the conclusion that our work has to be in the marketplace. And so one of our representatives literally lives a block. I mean, he works a block from the church, and I could walk down Church Street, knock on his door and say, Let's have coffee. And so we struck up a wonderful, dynamic relationship that he even invited me to the National Day of Prayer when President Obama was in office. And so I'm sitting in this room with all these politicians, and I'm trying to make connection beyond the Tennessee delegation. But it's really hard to work with folks who you know or against you. But we meet with our Republican brothers and sisters because it's about the people, right? It's not about your political alignment, because once you start in those shenanigans, then no one's fully human. And as people of color in this country, we know that we were less than human in the Constitution. And so we have to really rebuke that kind of language, that kind of strategy, and really come to the forefront around my humanity.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:30:48] And so being with politicians, what I have learned and what we have learned as a congregation, because we write letters, we make phone calls, we try to schedule as much time finding out what's going on in Washington, D.C., but more importantly, what's going on in Nashville that you really need to know about. So just recently, we met with two of the Republicans around the infrastructure bill, and we did not meet with the senators because that's a tall task. Right. We met with their aides. Their aides literally told us they did not know the problems that we were presenting were problems because they only listen to those who call well, who call the Republican line? Republicans. So we had to say, well, we're going to introduce you to people in our community. So starting next month, we're going to be meeting with them monthly around a meal and giving them Garlinda a tour of North Nashville so they can not only hear what's going on, they can put their feet in the places and meet the faces and be in dialogue. I was devastated that they did not know the things that my children know about Nashville because they live in their political bubbles and it's time to burst.
Garlinda Burton: [00:32:15] Those for those who don't know, North Nashville is has been the historically African American part of the city. It's really gentrifying now, but it still tends to be the poorest zip code in our city. It has the schools with the most challenges. There's a lot of economic exploitation. It is also the seat of our strong historically black colleges that have played a role in leadership in the community. So it's a very rich community. A lot of the African American leaders in the city came out of North Nashville, some of our strongest churches, historically black churches, and also, we have some strong Latino churches in that area. And so it's very true that some. Times in those communities. And I'm sure this is not different in Nashville than it is in other places. Sometimes those communities are not considered by politicians. And I would say oftentimes politicians on all sides of the aisle, because politics sometimes becomes a money game. And so to have that to have a church, a diverse church, to call and engage politicians and understanding who they're serving, the totality of who they're serving is, is really a very strong message. And how have your Sallie, I know with you some of the same thing. I know that you've been working your church has been working more locally with some politicians, although I know you do the other kind of advocacy work. What specific kinds of concerns in the anti-racism realm have you heard? Have you and your congregation been engaged in as you have moved from book studies to action?
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:34:15] Yes, thank you for that. So I want to just note again, Stephen, your comment about our shared humanity. I think that's the connector for all of us. And one of the things that I think we've been learning as we're moving toward more action is that within our congregation, there are people who have passionate, a passionate sense of wanting to take action in areas where they either are gifted areas that are specifically important to them. And we have been very blessed in that way to have some individuals who have really led the way for us specifically in regard to issues related to health care and criminal justice disparities, that there can be the engagement of our voices and our votes and to think about how we can have an impact in that way, and also how we can, again, continue to learn and continue to create relationships so that we become more aware of the depth of the political issues that we can, in fact, impact as a community. And so I've been really grateful to see the leadership that has come from within our congregation. And I would say also, if I didn't know this before, we are a predominantly white congregation, a large congregation, and I'm always so grateful for the ways that I think in any community God brings forth the people that are needed and calls each of us collectively as well as individually.
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:36:05] And that's really what we've been seeing happen. And so in addition to the legislative work, which we've got a group of people that have really been leading us in that direction and helping us to know what to do and who to contact and who to write letters to, and which bills are the most important that relate to anti-racism and justice kinds of issues. And there seems to be just an openness that we've seen in the legislative session, this last legislative session, that people are in tune to those topics in a way that we perhaps haven't seen in the same way before. And the other thing that has come to the forefront is other ways that people are really committed to taking action in other realms. So, for example, there are many educators among our congregation. And so being in a place of helping people to learn new skills, to learn what authentic and engaged and appropriate anti racism actions can look like, and also what does it look like to truly be allies and how do we connect? Because we understand that obviously we're not the ones that make that determination of whether we're allies or not.
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:37:31] As a white community, we are learning and engaging together. And so those are just a couple of areas that we have continued to recognize that I really, from a faith perspective, I truly believe that God works within our congregations and our extended community and that when we're noticing and paying attention, each of the next steps can unfold for us. And I always like to note where the energy is, where the energy is in the community, and where the passions are. And I've been amazed at the number of people who have links in our extended community that are really important. And so to invite that leadership among our congregation has been really important for us to as we continue to learn and continue to determine and discern. Where are we called right now? We're all called to anti racism, I believe, and I think it's a matter of having that. The alignment for each of us individually as well. Not only where we called as a community, but how are we each called and how can we bring our connections? Our alliances are specific. God given gifts to. Collectively be shared.
Garlinda Burton: [00:38:58] I think all of you have inspired in me the idea that doing some theological work, doing some real study, though, about the reality of racism. So we can't just stay stuck in the spiritual realm. We're also to move into the places of pain where people are struggling, but also to allow and invite the laypeople in your congregations to take it and run with it. And I love that idea as a strong lay woman who loves to work in concert with the pastors in in my in my churches, I think that is the energy that I like to see, what the congregants what the laypeople are interested in and how they lead into other places. And also connecting beyond, as Stephen said, beyond the walls of the church. And so that brings me to a question I had about the groups that you are working with that are beyond the church, the organizations, because those groups don't always speak our churchy language, but they can bring a real sense of accountability and a real sense of hitting where the most needs are. And so, JP, I wanted to hear from you about the I know that the immigration reform group was one, but are there anti racism groups in the community that that that people in your congregation are affiliated with or working with? And how have they helped, if they've helped with the church's growing awareness and the church's growing activity?
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:40:48] It's an area of. Yeah. Like talking straight, right? It's a challenge. My congregation, even though it has diversity, 80 plus percentage, is a predominantly Anglo congregation. It would call itself a progressive congregation that sees itself as an ally. And the theological underpinnings when I think about it. And maybe this narrative helps kind of for me, imagine the complexity. Sometimes I think there's a reading of scripture where in some sense we are all inheritors of this notion of conquering the promised land. And people like Mark Charles can help even kind of deconstruct that and go, Whoa, there's already a problem there. And so in one sense, there's a paradigm that we are inheritors or conquerors or taking over. And that's a paradigm that we hold. God blesses, and we take, or God has blessed us and it's ours. And so if you kind of reverse the positions in some place, some place, I think my congregation, as much as we are wanting allyship. It's not far to begin to worry that we are inheritors of the promised land. And now we have invaders wanting to take pieces of that. On the border. There's the immigrants coming in. And as progressive as we are, there is something that kind of can still connect with the anxiety of, Oh, gosh, what are we going to have to lose? What do we have to let go of? Right. And then they have two leaders, a Korean guy and a Latino guy who are in some sense a part of those what would traditionally be the outsiders coming in. But we're now insiders with them. And they want to be allies with us. And we are shepherds together. Right. So there's complexity in how you think about it.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:42:42] How do I engage the community out there when part of me feels that they are the outsiders? And so the shift that we've been making, I almost feel like there's we're going to keep switching roles. So now I'm saying, well, let's be like Joshua and let's scout the land. But we're not scouting it to conquer it. We're scouting it because we are shared inheritors of God's creation together. And so there is even creation theology, right? The Earth is the Lord’s, and we are all children of God inheriting this Earth and being stewards of it. And so we've been scouting scout this group scout that tried to see where our connections are, not for the purpose of conquering, but so that they can inform us of this land, which they might know better, even. Right. So that allyship is happening with groups. Like I mentioned before, the fast for freedom effort the community shoulders group that we the people ride. But again, all of these are just scouting efforts. It doesn't yet speak to the whole community that for the most part is still huddled, wondering what our next move will be. So that's just kind of a description of where I think we are. We are still a huddled group. We have such a long history of being congregational, even while we're confessional. And I think the shift we're really working on is which is which is good for everybody. Hey, it's evangelism. Stop being congregational. Be more parish. Stop being. How do I protect my structure and think, how do we restructure to realize we have shared room to invite different tribes in and build those relationships?
Garlinda Burton: [00:44:31] And isn't that at the root of racism? You know that there's that the notion of scarce scarcity, that there's not enough, even though we serve a god of abundance, that there's not enough, and that the, you know, to the conquerors go the spoils, you know. And so, you know. Yeah, I'm so sorry that that people of color that, you know, native and indigenous people, that black folks, you know, that poor folks, you know, that LGBTQ folks may not have enough, but I've got to protect what's mine. And isn't that the root of racism once you've begun that, you know, that sort of that sort of mindset of scarcity and that, you know, I'm a conqueror and even rationalizing that I'm a conqueror because God has made me that chosen group, my group, my color, my class. I'm the chosen group. It's hard to open up to other folks who would cast a different narrative. And I think that's also speaks to why racism has been such a cancer in the in the life of the Christian church, not just in the United States, but around the world. That notion of conquer conquered. You know, it's what made colonialism happen in many senses, you know, taking of scripture, exploiting it to mean conquering. And we still see that in communities today. So, Stephen, you're nodding and I'm thinking that you may have something to say about that with the group that you're working with. When you mentioned Gideon's Army, I thought, wow, that is very that's a very interesting ally for an older a longtime congregation that has been predominantly white. I know it's changed some under your leadership. So what about bringing those groups in or connecting with groups and partners who may think differently and may not have that, you know, that sense of contemplation all the time, which sometimes we contemplate too much, I think, as Christians.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:46:42] Navel gazing right, navel gazing.
Garlinda Burton: [00:46:45] I do think that.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:46:46] It's one of the things that we constantly remind our congregation of is our history. We were an Episcopal South church simply means that we were on the side of slavery. And then after 222 years of its beloved history, I get appointed as the first African American pastor. Wait a minute. Right. This is not who we are, but they've been a very loving and caring and friendly congregation. But its history literally said at one point in time we had more black folk than white folk, and they redirected them for towards an African missional effort to build another church, which is about a mile from our church, which is the first colored Methodist Episcopal Church in the state of Tennessee. We're the oldest Methodist church. They're the oldest same church, which is now Christian Methodist. But the structure, the architectural structure is the same. It's just a mini version of who we are. So when I think about that connection, that reality, we are often reminded that we don't know enough. Right? When I when I'm preparing my sermons, I no longer prepare my sermons in isolation. I was taught that in the cemetery I'm sorry, seminary. And this idea that I need to have laity and clergy in the room helping me execute not only the text, but the culture.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:48:14] So when I'm actually reading the culture, then I realize there are some what I call some cheerleaders out there who will say, go, keep doing it. I don't want to be involved. I'm going to cheer from the sidelines. Then these allies of people who want to step a little further into the conversation and maybe get their hands a little dirty. But we've said we want allies, but we really want abolitionists. We want people who will really be willing to die for this cause. Now, that will put a lot of people on edge because it's too early to talk about that. Right. And I'm saying, well, wait a minute, there's a zip code, right? Garlinda called 37208, which is the most mass incarcerated zip code in the country, and it's here in North Nashville. So for me, often when I talk to my colleagues, there's not this sense of urgency. We'll get there when we get there and every day we don't get there. There's another person of color who goes behind bars, so we don't have time to have another pleasant conversation. We have to reach out in the marketplace to see who's radical enough to help us disrupt our pattern of thinking.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:49:24] So Gideon's Army was one of those groups that I said, these guys, first of all, they bring data. Data speaks truth. And so Gideon's Army is this community based grassroots organization that uses restorative justice practices, and they dismantle the pipeline line to mass incarceration. Let me say that again. They're an organization which has restorative justice programs, and they dismantle the school to prison pipeline through a whole lot of educational programming and an excellent group. If indeed we don't align with that, we don't get that edge about us. Right. We stay in the middle where it's safe and peaceful and calm. And I'm saying, no, we have to be disrupted in this work and we can't retreat back to our comfort. So Gideon's Army is one of those organizations that keeps us disrupted so that our mind will be focused on doing it differently with a keen sense of urgency. Because as I said earlier, every day we don't do this work. It infects the body of Christ, and we're not here to help that infection. So the abolitionist mindset is the wording that we use more than anything. Although Gideon's Army could be considered an ally, they're an abolitionist organization, and that's where we want to be at the church.
Garlinda Burton: [00:50:49] It's a good model because maybe not enough, but many of the abolitionist movements were led by people of faith back in the day. You know, not enough. But many of the organizations that were championing Native American folks when they were being under siege by the Europeans, were people of Christian faith. Not enough, but there were some. And so abolition and advocacy in that very frontline sense is also a part of our DNA as well. We have a lot of racist history to atone for, but we also have some history of aligning with people on the front lines and actually doing the work, not just cheering from the sidelines, but, as you say, getting our hands dirty. Sally, that brings me to you. I remember us talking about in in your area, there was some work trying to engage with Native American folk and to talk about the harm that had been done to Native Americans in in Colorado and in that community. And I thought I remembered that there were people in your church who were at least engaged in that conversation or working with several different churches. Can you say a word about that and about the role of working with community groups?
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:52:16] Yes, thank you for that. Garlinda, As you know, we had the conversation about mapping racism, which is a lot of the work you have done. Correct. And so we did have a very good conversation about the importance of acknowledging that and the Mountain Sky Conference, which I know many have been part of addressing the history that's here in Colorado and being engaged in moving things forward. So as a conference, there has been a lot of work that has been done. And I think one of the things that for us is a congregation that we're beginning to have more conversations about is how do we continue to acknowledge the land where we are and the history that exists, and how do we honor the history that is here? And what does that reconciliation over time look like? And there has been significant work that's been done at a conference level in Garlinda. I know you were very much a part of that. So that's an area, quite honestly, that I think as a congregation we are moving into those discussions. And when we think about partnerships, I think we're very much at the place where we are seeking what are those powerful partnerships that we can be part of. And Stephen, I so appreciate your comments about the urgency that exists, and that is, quite honestly, I think one of the concerns that we have talked about as a community is that continued urgency that we've had this particular time that has brought so many things to the forefront, and how do we continue to go forward and keep that energy and keep the commitment? Because we all know that this is a lifelong commitment, and it's a lifelong process. And certainly I acknowledge that I personally have so much learning to do and so much more internal work to do so that the actions we take can be actions of grace and actions of integrity. And so that's I appreciate you bringing that to the forefront, Linda, because I think that is one of the areas in regard to Native people, in regard to the tribes who are part of this community and the potential for deeper, deeper healing. I think always there's more layers and more complexity. And so any step that we take feels often like it opens the doors to the next and next and next level of healing that we are. Hall, too. And that is part of our responsibility and part of what we hope for to create the future that I think God is envisioning for all of us.
Garlinda Burton: [00:55:29] Just to be just to be clear, I was not as much a part of what was going on in Mountain Sky. I wrote a lot about it on behalf of Religion & Race. It was actually my predecessor, Aaron Hawkins, who did a lot of work in supporting the acknowledgement of the Sand Creek massacre, which was when a Methodist Calvary person led a massacre of women, children and older men back in the 1800s, I believe. And that was that was an emphasis of the Mountain Sky Conference in recent years to make amends for that and also to call the church as well as the larger white community into account and to and to reparations for Native American persons. And I know that conversation is still going on in that area, so that that's why I brought it up. But thank you, Sallie, for sharing that.
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [00:56:33] And Bishop Stanophsky was very engaged in leading us in that process and meeting people within the Mountain Sky Conference.
Garlinda Burton: [00:56:42] And I think the collaboration with leaders in the native community was very, very important. And that's a point that we make about anti racism. And you all have mentioned it, that anti-racism is taking tangible action that is urgent, that is meaningful, and that is making changes to dismantle racism. And it has to be done with integrity and it has to be done in concert with and defined by people of color. It's effective if people of color say it's effective, it's not to make white folks feel good, to make the church feel like we're doing something. It's to be a tangible transformation that disrupts racism with the with the understanding of people of color and in partnership with people of color. So just to clarify that. JP Yes.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [00:57:40] I just wanted to raise a question for maybe getting some insights, Steve and Sallie, from both of you. Our common denominator is that we're all working with congregations that are predominantly Anglo, right? And I just found it wonderful that within this group, Sally, if you're kind of work definition, so I just kind of take meanings and try to paint it out. So healing and wellness, oftentimes when we think about that, we think of the inward movement, even though there's a very real outward movement that is a part of the healing process and wellness process, especially when it comes to community. And Stephen, I am envious of your title, innovation and connection, right? That, that most people think of that as outward. You need to reach out to find new resources, ideas, so forth. So in the two of you, I see these two movements of the church, which creates a lot of other metaphors, right? The inward church, the outward church. We need to heal even while we're advancing, but we need to advance and never be too caught up in just the healing. Right. That is just befuddling, right? Like how do you work with a church? Yeah. Where do you find those are tensions? And some people just camp themselves in just one. Heal me, healing me, heal me and others are just like, run, run, run. No matter how many people are falling, let's get this war won. Is there a wisdom? What are you learning? How do you heal while you move? I guess.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [00:59:17] That's it. So JP, what a great question. What we continue to learn is beyond anything else, we have to deal with trauma. The church does not deal with trauma. Well, and we all have it right, the different levels of it. But most of it, what we're learning is unresolved. So the work that has to be done has to be done. Also in alignment with being culturally competent is the trauma piece. And so we're trying to figure out where, where is the integration of those, at least those two? Garlinda I could add three or four more because I know my sister's always on it. But what we're saying is, let's take the next fateful step together and let's make sure that we don't impose inflict more trauma unknowingly. And then we have to apologize. So Garlinda is right. Allow people of color to lead this. And the dominant culture that kind of stripped Eastern Christianity, Middle Eastern Christianity, before it got to Westernized Christianity that was stripped away. And so American soil is predicated on white supremacy. We don't want to talk about that. It is predicated on white supremacy. So our origin is white supremacy called white Christianity, now known as Christianity. And join us if you want to be a part if you want to assimilate into this, join us where some of us have said as a Methodist church and I keep going back to what I call where is the evidence of our transformation.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [01:01:04] In 68, we were we were 94% white, 6% people of color. In 2018, Pew Study, not Kitchen Research, says that we are still 94% white, 6% people of color. And yet we want to say we are just fine, we're moving forward. And I simply say thank you for being optimistic. But where is the evidence that transformation is happening? I'm not talking about in a church or church or church there, where in the body of Christ are we seeing the fullness of grace erupt in the midst of evil? And I want to be a part of that movement where. Laity Right. I think. Garlinda We as clergy need to get out of the way and allow the laity because we are credentialed entity. And that's not who the Wesleyan movement was. They were laypeople who were empowered to do this work. And so I contend we're going to change the racism landscape. Lay people have to move forward.
Garlinda Burton: [01:02:05] And I think things happen to Stephen. I'm sort of in a different place. I have found that the most energy for engaging the church in both spiritual and community transformation happens when clergy and lady can work together and have healthy partnerships beyond the church to help keep our information fresh and our energy fresh. So I would agree with you, and I would add, though, that I think the partnership with clergy, a true partnership, and I think it goes both ways. I think sometimes the way we do church; church becomes a spectator sport where the clergy and the choir perform. And we come in on Sunday and call that church maybe on Wednesday for Bible study and choir rehearsal and call that church. I think what we're seeing is that churches that are on the move for Christ and specifically churches that are engaged in anti-racism, life and work, are those that are finding a new vitality and a new life. I read an article a couple of days ago that multi-cultural congregations and this I forget who the study was that multicultural congregations especially multi congregations, multicultural congregations that started out as predominantly white congregations, but then made the deliberate effort to become more multicultural. Those churches tend to be stronger financially. They tend to be stronger spiritually now. They're not always stronger in the social realm, but they tend to have more impact on the communities around them.
Garlinda Burton: [01:03:49] I wish I could find that article. I sent it to myself, but yeah, and I was kind of surprised to hear that. But I wasn't surprised because in the United States and in Europe, many of our United Methodist churches and other old, old line mainstream churches still operate in mono racial reality. So most of the churches are, you know, are segregated on Sunday and not legally. But in fact and I think that vitality, the vitality and the growth that comes when we are struggling together and working together and having to deal with each other's issues together brings a life and an energy and a conviction that may not be found in old line, old line, predominantly white churches. If you think about it, we're talking about racism. Many white people never have to consider racism at all and don't consider it until there's a person of color in their life a pastor, a son in law, a daughter in law, even an adopted child, a coworker, a boss. It never occurs to many people that race is a real concern, a real thing until we get in interracial situations. And so I think it makes sense that that the work has to be done. Both we all have to do our own work, but then we have to come together as your churches are coming together and say, what is our work now that we're aware that these things are happening in our communities, now that we are aware that police that policing is more aggressive in low income black and brown communities, now that we know that, that the more that people who have immigrated this country now who are brown are getting a different kind of response than the millions of Europeans that immigrated here, that Native Americans are still being obliterated, their cultures being obliterated.
Garlinda Burton: [01:06:02] I think that once that awareness is there, then we can't back away from it as Christians because our calling is to transform the world for Christ. And so if that's our calling, transforming means you can't sit still. So I you know, I think that’s, and I think that's where all three of you are. I'm going to ask you all as we get ready to wrap up to say one word about where you hope to be a year from now in this work. All of you are at some level in the last four or five years of moving forward, and all of you are doing good things and making strides. Where would you like to be one year from now? What do you think it's going to look like, your anti-racism work. Sally, I'm going to start with you.
Rev. Dr. Sallie Suby-Long: [01:06:53] Okay. I love the question. I love imagining what the possibilities could be and moving forward and maintaining that sense of urgency. So I would love to imagine that we have. Great partnerships that have extended beyond anything that I can even imagine right now that are beyond our immediate community that are in the Denver metro area. And farther than that, and that we have individuals within our congregation that continue to connect with the things that they are the most passionate about and bringing their skills and their talents and their expertise to the forefront that we would engage in partnerships of not only learning, but looking very deeply, both individually as well as in our community and beyond that, to really do the work deeply together on all of those levels. And that we would see. Considerable engagement, certainly with the legislative efforts that we're engaged in, that we would see a change in the way that we can have these conversations together and that we would be in true partnership with one another to do the really difficult work and to continue doing the really difficult work overtime. And that there would be that that energy and commitment and accountability that we walk forward with.
Garlinda Burton: [01:08:40] Thanks so much. I'm praying for that for Saint Luke as well. Stephen. Where are you going to be a year from now at McKendree?
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [01:08:52] So we we've been talking about this new word called kingdom centric. And how do we move away from where we are? How do we move from here to there? So now there are planting the gospel in micro communities, not planning another church. But to your point earlier, GA Linda, about multiracial, multicultural churches. They to me is what God meant when he says Go there for and make disciples. We have converted that into mono cultural communities. So our goal this next in the future is to plant communities of up to 40 in neighborhoods in north, south, east and west communities. And then take that model and go to Memphis and then go to Knoxville and then go to Chattanooga and then go to Chicago and St Pete. So there is this foundational theological effort around equity. More than anything else because we played around with so many other terms. We landed on equity, right as one of our core values of this movement. And to make sure that when we plant the gospel, we plant it with a diverse team as opposed to a person going and asking them to save the day to rescue that congregation from themselves. And then there's a full collaboration of government nonprofit, faith based communities in concert, doing the work of the kingdom here on Earth as it is in heaven. That's quit. That's what we think.
Garlinda Burton: [01:10:42] And that's going to be great. And these are going to be coming from McKendree and planting in in these other places.
Rev. Dr. Stephen Handy: [01:10:49] Well, based on where this beloved United Methodist Church is going, Garlinda, that is a legitimate question around the branding of this movement. We're suggesting right now that it will be a group of us planting these without a brand.
Garlinda Burton: [01:11:08] OK. Good for you. I love it. You know, take taking it. Taking it out to the streets. You know, I'm all about it. And JP, for you, I know there's a nimbleness to your congregation that I like.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [01:11:25] We're small, so we can do.
Garlinda Burton: [01:11:28] Yeah, there's a little more nimbleness and all of them. All three of these congregations are great churches and great communities. And JP Christ Crossman is no exception. So where do you see yourself? Where does the congregation going to be doing a year from now with regard to anti racism?
Rev. J.P. Hong: [01:11:47] Again, older and older, I get I'm starting to act like my father. My father used to make lists before he talks, so I've been writing lists. Thanks, Dad. A good friend of mine, Miss Emma Clay, and a couple of appointments before. Used to say about that previous church. She was a black American, African American woman. She adopted me as her son. As often people are prone to do when you got a younger pastor coming in, she said, we're a flock of beautiful, strange birds. A year from now, I'd like to say that our flock is more beautiful and more strange because we've brought in another degree, meaningful degree. And for a small church, there we go. Here's my push. For small churches, it's easy to do that. Bring in one different person. You have a higher percentage of difference. So like in the past year, our LGBTQ definition has even diversified. So we have some of those other unique personalities and histories and experiences being represented. We have a mental mentally disabled, and we working with words all the time, right? A person with whom we as a congregation are now being compelled and invited to learn and kind of the community together.
Rev. J.P. Hong: [01:13:09] So just continue to expand a flock of incredibly beautiful, strange birds. The second thing I'd say is to collectively, we have individuals who have great spidey sense. If we can say that we have collectively divided, developed a spidey sense for when harm is being done and there's a little bit more of a collective action on springing to that. That would be meaningful. And it's not just, again, just a few individuals, but we are heroic together. And the last thing I think about is we are we hired an architect because like a lot of small churches, we got a lot of money that goes up to maintaining our building. I hope a year from now you will hear that we have a definitive plan where the church footprint on our space is smaller because we don't want to maintain a big space for our strategy. We would have created more community space so that we recognize we're a tribe among tribes, and the more oasis's we can create for everyone to get together, the more naturally we're working on that work of equity and being just with one another, just by getting to know one another better and hanging out.
Garlinda Burton: [01:14:22] Thank you. And that is a good way to begin to build partnerships, to open your space up to groups who share your values, share your concerns, maybe push us to be to be even more expanded in our understanding of what it means to be human beings making the world better in the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ. I want to thank you all for being here. I want to thank our audience for listening again to Expanding the Table by the General Commission on Religion and Race. Thank you for joining us on the specific topic of how we move from conversations and book studies about racism to anti-racist action in our churches and in our faith communities. I want to thank our guests, especially the Reverend JP Hong, the Reverend Sallie Suby-Long, and the Reverend Dr. Stephen Handy. If you have not already signed up or subscribe to a podcast, a podcast medium where you can hear our podcast, please do that. Follow us. We love hearing from our listeners, and we would love your ideas and your responses. You can email us at podcast@gcorr.org Again podcast@gcorr.org. As always, if you like what you heard, subscribe and share this podcast with others and follow us on social media and of course, rate us and review us at your podcast. At your favorite podcast platform, every five star review sends a message that podcasts like this one are valuable and appreciated. Again, thank you for being with us, for expanding the table until next time. Remember that God is calling us for such a time as this. Thank you for joining us.